On Sun, 8 Jun 2008 08:32:53 -0700 (PDT), Le Chaud Lapin
wrote:

On Jun 8, 9:51*am, Clark wrote:
Most SOPs I am familiar with for heavy aircraft tell you to keep
flying if a Master Caution illuminates on takeoff AFTER 80-100 knots.
After 80-100 knots, hi speed aborts are done for Fires, Engine
Failures, Windshear and if the PIC believes the airplane will not
fly.

Hmm....I think this sends the wrong signal to aspiring pilots (no pun
intended).

When I was reading the Risk Management section of my Jeppesen book, it
specifically states that one of the major reasons that accidents
happens is that pilots choose to ignore the warning signs.

If you are saying that a high-speed abort would have done more damage
(to the aircraft) than to continue to fly, that's one thing. But if
you are saying that it is ok for $1.4 billion machine to continue to
takeoff simple becase it is more convenient than aborting...???

I am sure that if I were to go to my flight instructor, and tell him
that, from now on, if any warning lights come on in his sub-$400,000
aircraft, I will use my own judgement during an abortable take off to
decide whether the warning is serious enough to abort, he'd shriek.

This crew had no idications to warrant an abort. After a certain
threshold they are biased to continue and that is what they did,
similar to Comair 5191. Blaming the pilots does not "un-crash" this
aircraft. There are system issues to be corrected here. I'm glad they
survived.

Blame has to be placed somewhere, or shared, right? If blame is not
placed, it starts to give the impression that no one is at fault, at
least not the pilots.

Let's look at it another way. Let us suppose that no warnings existed
at all in the B-2 Spirit, that everything looked normal right before
ejection. There would be a thorough investigation, meeting rooms
filled with technologists and top brass, and once the cause were
found, someone would suggest...

"How hard is it to add a warning light so that if moisture clogs the
system, the computer at least tells the pilots that something is
wrong? Can you do that?" They engineers would probably say yes.
"Would you pilots find that useful?" Again, the pilots would probably
say yes.

For a very good read on time compressed decision making and concurrent
task management, get a copy of "The Limits of Expertise: Rethinking
Pilot Error and the Causes of Airline Accidents" by Dismukes, Berman
and Loukopouloshttp://www.amazon.com/Limits-Expertise-Rethinking-Airline-Accidents/d...

Fly Smart

By managing risk better?

One way to look at is...if they had aborted, the plane would still be
here, and some engineer would have figured out the error in true vs
indicated speed, and noted that pilots would have attempted rotation
at a speed that might have resulted in a crash, and pilots would have
been lauded for their attitude toward risk management...in the $1.4
billion aircraft.

Also, given that it's a B-2, and not a $40,000 Tomahawk, I would think
one would have a slightly higher expectation of pilot's attitude
toward risk management...or not.

If it seems that I am nit-picking at this topic, I am. The more I
read, the more I am discovering that vast majority of crashes, if one
looks only at the facts, has to do with some erroneous decision that
human made somewhere, not the machine itself. A year ago, before I
started all this, I would have expected it to be entirely the other
way around, the idea being that, the pilot would know that if they do
something really stupid, death is a possibility. Some of the errors
that pilots make are....ahem...plane silly.

Making mistakes is ok, as no one is perfect. The problem, I think,
becomes systemic when the community as a whole develops tendency to
reject blame. That is what I, a student pilot, see each time I open a
magazine, or read online material.

-Le Chaud Lapin-
************************************************

Le Chaud Lapin

Some comments.

High speed aborts on Runway many times cause bird to go off end and
burn. If stopped on R/W the brakes probably catch fire from the heat
generated in the brakes in the abort. Even with antiskid brakes the
tires would probably be blown in the abort and the magnisum wheels
burn very good. These brake fires has led to loss of the aircraft
after abort.

The warning light was not the "fire warning" light??? as I understand.
It just showed a system problem. If no fire, I probably would have
continued the take off as the lessor of two evils.

Don't know when light came on. If just after breaking ground then
trying to fly was the correct option.

Some may disagree with me but we all have opinions and I wasn't in the
cockpit on take off when decision to continue was made.

You'all have a nice day.

Big John