On Saturday, April 24, 2021 at 10:09:34 AM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
On Saturday, April 24, 2021 at 5:44:20 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Friday, April 23, 2021 at 11:04:07 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 4/23/2021 4:41 AM, wrote:
On Friday, April 23, 2021 at 1:09:58 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
Bob, you keep saying "there is an advantage". What advantage, exactly? Are you suggesting that in this case, the MG pilot was too low to reach a safe landing site when he started his motor? If so give us the link to his IGC file (or date and name), so that we may see this. I doubt you will because I doubt you can. "A much appreciated comment..." - do your MG friends commonly lie about starting the motor? It is right there in the IGC file for anyone to see. I'd be more than happy with a low save rule for contests where starting your motor - or thermaling - too low for a safe landing meant a DSQ, the so called 'hard deck' rule. It would affect more purists than MG pilots, I'll wager.

Of course there are pilots who fly low into unlandable terrain. I knew two, they did the same thing while flying non MG gliders and eventually came to grief. The motor didn't change their attitude, at most it delayed the inevitable. Kawa's accident isn't really a surprise, his risk tolerance is self documented.

I have started my motor I think 6 times in 20 years for a retrieve.. Every time it was 1500 ft AGL over a paved runway marked on a sectional.. The glider is too expensive to stuff into a field and too heavy to carry out of it.
On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 10:10:26 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 10:58:06 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
I'm sorry, was that a revelation for you? That is what you do with a motorglider. The purist has exactly the same (or better) flight opportunity on a crummy day, except at the termination of the flight they may have to land and get an air or ground retrieve, an inconvenience. The motor in a glider is and always has been a convenience item. In fact, the purist has a *better* opportunity on a crummy day, because he can dump ballast and keep soaring in conditions that the motorglider cannot. On one flight I got home by this very fact, when I would otherwise have had to start the motor, effectively landed out - the motor had been removed for modification and the glider was 150 lbs lighter allowing the extra climb needed for final glide.

You continue to conflate 'convenience' with 'safety'. Look the terms up if you are confused by them.

If you tell me that some pilot started the motor low over unlandable terrain, then that pilot is a fool living on borrowed time, and would be regardless of the type of glider he was flying.
On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 4:54:59 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, April 20, 2021 at 3:55:08 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Monday, April 19, 2021 at 10:05:26 AM UTC-4, Mark Mocho wrote:
"I'd rather have a motor and not need it than need a motor it and not have it."

However, I can't afford a motorglider and the associated insurance costs and maintenance expenses. But I don't approve of the "class warfare" tactics promoted by "Old Bob." Got a lot of MG friends, as well as "purists." This thread should die.
Mark, how can there be class warfare, we all can afford do do what we want. Old Bob
Finally found a honest motorglider comment on OLC. Yes, just yesterday I was resting from a visit from the doctor and reading the OLC results from Perry, S.C. One motorglider pilot stated that he was not doing well and the conditions were not good so he started his motor and went back home. The purist did not have that opportunity especially on a crummy day. Old Bob
Good morning Fitch, no, the comment was not a revelation, it was a much appreciated comment from a motorglider pilot. It further confirms that there is an advantage from the motorglider vs the purist, maybe you should not abrogate the fact that there is an advantage. Your friend, Old Bob
Good morning my friend Fitch, hopefully you got a good night sleep and had no nightmares of a purist recovering from a low save to make it home for dinner. Just yesterday I got a call from Puerto Rico, it was a motorglider friend who offered to let me fly his JS3 MJ. I very quickly told him NO, why, because he would take a picture of me in his motorglider and send it to Seminole Lakes Motorglider Club and all the MG pilots would fall over laughing.
Seriously, IMHO there is a big advantage to the MG, being able to stretch it out a bit further to gain an advantage is a big plus on the side of the motorglider, simply stated, it prolongs a flight in certain situations, increases the ability to complete task or objectives without otherwise terminating the flight, that in and of itself is a huge advantage. Motorgliders and sustainers need to be scored in a class by themselves. Your friend and purist, Old Bob
I gotta say, this motorglider pilot would leap at the chance to fly a
JS3, even if it DIDN'T have a motor!

You seem a fool to pass up flying such a magnificent sailplane. You
could have learned so much about motorgliders that you are only now
guessing about. Call him back, tell you what to fly it, but just with
tows. It's a start to shedding your ignorance. If you feel comfortable
with it after a few flights, the next step is to think about using the
motor to launch in the JS3 after you've towed all the other gliders. And
think how much more credible you'd be, with actual experience.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"

https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
Eric, obviously you don't know very much about motorgliders, how do you self launch in a JS3 MJ? Your lack of knowledge is showing, I would suggest doing a bit of research on motorgliders especially the JS3 Jet. I have an idea, in your next book you should write a chapter on self launching a sustainer. Old Bob
Again Bob you are just talking out your ass. If you did a little research you would see that there are lots of sustainers that can self launch. Bob if it has flaps it can self launch. We even had one based at Seminole that could self launch.
Why don't you get a new topic that you know something about.

To Glenn, you have not read or possibly did not care to read the referenced post to Eric. Please let me take this moment and kindly correct you about the sustainer as referenced. The JS3 MJ is a sustainer only! Not capable of self launch, the climb rate while airborne is between 100 and 200 fpm. The flap handle has nothing to do with the capability of shelf launch on that sustainer glider. The same with the ASG29, I just finished reading the manual and there was no reference to self launch.
The self and sustainer combo is available on a JS model Sailplane, I will let you educate yourself instead of relying on the information from my mouth not my ass as you replied.
Some people are taking sustainer glider and assisting for launch with a ground launch, I do know of a person who does a auto assist to gain altitude with his sustainer glider so that he can continue to locate a thermal to continue his flight.
I hope you are doing well, enjoying your stay in sunny Florida and you have an open invitation to join us here along with Eric to soar the beautiful skies of the Treasure Coast. Eileen and I would welcome you here at the ranch. Old Bob