On 11/7/2010 6:08 PM, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Nov 7, 2:03 pm, Mike
wrote:
On 11/7/2010 2:15 PM, bildan wrote:



On Nov 7, 10:42 am, John
wrote:
On Nov 7, 10:13 am, wrote:

Turning away from soaring because of how the glider looks just doesn't
seem valid to me, but that's just me.
This discussion should be about the thousands, perhaps tens of
thousands, who didn't become glider pilots because they were put off
by unattractive gliders, trashy operations etc...

Yesterday I gave 6 young people their first rides in an ASK-21 - they
all wanted more. However, at lunch break, I couldn't help noticing
the picnic table was 6 feet from an overflowing garbage can. We can
do better.

There is a tendency around soaring to mistake what we want, and what
we think people should want, with what they actually do want.
The world has changed. People have more money, less time, and higher
expectations. And many more choices. We can tell them they should want
something different, but they vote with their feet.

The real question should be, what about self launch. My ideal trainer
is the ASK21 with motor. It's much more economical on time, the thing
we are all short of. Alas our airport is too short.

John Cochrane

Agreed, John.

Aero tow corresponds to skiing's rope tow - it's slow and requires
skill. Self launch corresponds to helicopter skiing - fast, exclusive
and expensive. For those of us with less money, more time and room,
there's winch launch which might be said as corresponding to a chair
lift.

To this I would add instructor supervised simulator training. This is
a proven adjunct to pilot training which can be done anywhere, anytime
with no weather or equipment restrictions. With the loss of 50% of
our training fleet due to the L-13 grounding, I'd think this would be
an attractive option for a lot of people. With a data projector
(beamer) it lends itself to classroom sessions with a number of
student pilots in attendance. The use of simulators can
significantly reduce the demands on scarce training gliders.

Bill Daniels

If you look at a Motorglider like the Phoenix, you can also keep it in a
regular T-Hanger at your local urban airport. Now you don't have to
drive 45 miles to get to a glider port. That's another huge plus for
both established glider pilots as well as new prospects.

--
Mike Schumann

Are you talking abut the Phoenix as a potential private owner or for
instruction? (which was the context here?).

Its a tail-dragger tourer. I'm not sure about the insurance issues
there, while possible (but expensive?) I've seen issues with owners of
their own type-certificated power tail daggers getting insurance for
receiving instruction in their own aircraft even when coupled with
high time tail-dragger instructors.

When will it be type certificated in the USA? As an LSA you are able
to do exactly what instruction today...?

You can keep training gliders like a Duo Discus in its box and rig it
daily if needed. I know operation that do that. And I know lots of
folks, including me, that rig without problems at public airports. So
while I'm not disagreeing on the potential for storage in a hangar as
begin a convenience for an owner I'm just not sure it removes a
significant barrier to providing glider training in new places. The
ability to more easily taxi a touring motor-glider especial around
runway and taxiway lights etc. might be a more significant advantage
for operating out of GA airports. Hard to guess a general statement
there.

Darryl

I visited the Phoenix factory about a month or so ago in the Czech
Republic. A tricycle gear version of the Phoenix is a distinct
possibility if there is demand for it.

The Phoenix Motorglider is, or will be, LSA certified in the US. I'm
not an expert on the LSA rules, but my understanding is that flying an
LSA plane gives you the ability to get a Sport License, with less effort
than a regular license. However, I don't believe that there is any
reason that you can't get a regular glider license in an LSA certified
motorglider (or glider), if you are getting instruction from a regular
CFIG, meeting the normal requirements, including the regular written
test and FAA check ride.

Similarly, I believe that it is also possible to get a regular SEL
pilot's license in a regular LSA plane, like the Flight Design CT, or
the Cessna Skycatcher.

With the engine off, the Phoenix has an L/D of about 30:1. That's not
that different from a lot of older 2 seat training gliders. Granted,
the actual flight training will involve a lot of stuff that is more
similar to power flight than gliders (you won't learn aero-tow
procedures). For a lot of prospects, who aren't already pilots, that
may actually be perceived as a plus.

Conversely, with this kind of a motorglider, a student might actually
get a lot more cross-country training than what is currently provided by
many clubs, who discourage or prohibit the use of conventional club
gliders for cross country flights, due to a lack of trailers, and/or
concerns about logistical hassles with land-outs.

--
Mike Schumann