On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 17:44:20 +1100, Aerophotos
wrote:

So what stuff am i making up?, regarding fast movers under non us
military control?..... simple quote the source again

Well, I've been reading the thread, so now must ring in. "Fast movers
under 'non-us' military control"? That's a bit of an oxymoron for
several reasons.

First--'under control' usually means simply under the control of a
forward air controller, not manned and flown by some outside force.
Yes, there were a lot of fast mover sorties controlled by non-US FACs,
mostly S. Vietnamese, but also Laotian FACs. More commonly there were
host nation observers in US FAC aircraft.

Second--'non-military' can certainly mean Air America, which was
arguably a CIA operation.

Third--the operation of "fast movers" of the period was a highly
technical business requiring a lot of training. If one accepts your
premise of CIA operation of F-4 or F-111 aircraft, then it would be
done by USAF trained crews, posted to CIA for a period of time out of
uniform. Much like most of the Air America operatives.

he flew black painted fast movers under non us military control and did
stuff that was different to other crews..

Sorry, no black painted fast movers that I ever encountered. That
includes 1966 and again 1972-1973.

are you jealous?

So you claim, a talented person who is a amazing in what he acheived and
who served in vietnam is a liar? thats a low blow to him.

You don't yet offer details about the resume of this source. Is he US?
Is he US military? Did he fly US fast-movers? When? Where? What unit?

Give me a name and I'll validate. Otherwise the odds are just as good
that you're dealing with another wannabe.

I ask can you recall anything you saw in a war that was covert at that
time? I dont think you will.. cause you werent there...

I was there. Yes, there were covert ops. I'm close friends with
several Ravens. Still doesn't relate to anything you've offered.

I wont comment any further on non us military forces as in fast movers
as i dont know beyond what ive been told by my source.

Let's detail a bit on your source.

just cause i dont name sources of info for you is like some kind of
endorsement is it? what if they were proven to be right doesnt that make
you look like a idiotic critic then.

You don't have to give me a name (although that would help). Simply
give me some biography to validate.

Just cause some people personelly hate the US political doctrine that
sent the US to war, doesnt mean the same people hate those who served..
please note that difference before you rant off ...

Frankly Scarlett, I don't give a damn what you hate. But, when you
spout the incredible then it merits questioning.

Let me ask YOU a question...

Did you ever serve in Laos or Cambodia? ....

Well, to be honest, yes. I flew a lot of missions into Barrel Roll and
Steel Tiger in the F-105. Participated in a few rescues in that area
as well. Also was back over the Barrel in the F-4 and by January of
'73 we were operating daily over Cambodia. Been to Angkor Wat and Siam
Reap a lot.

If not i suggest you be quiet. Because your out of order.

The perfect riposte to disagreement. Simply be quiet.

My source who i spoke to long time ago... knows what he is talking
about.. if you knew his qualifcations you be impressed.. i know i was.

I eagerly await being impressed.

Maybe my memory has gone fuzzy since i discussed the issues with the
source... and i mixed the F-111 with another aircraft that was black
painted.. maybe if so sorry.. not everyone is perfect at remebering
things in time .. even my source had some recollection issues.. 30yrs is
a long time ....but im not one to doubt this person who told me....

I do pretty good at remembering. It's easier if you were there. Read
"When Thunder Rolled" for some details. Book on the F-4 in Linebacker
is coming out in the fall.

Never saw a black F-4 or F-111 in theater. F-111's weren't there most
of the time except for a short deployment in '67 and then returned in
the fall of '72.

Impossible to fly a combat weapons delivery sortie in either airplane
without a second crewmember. (Note that the F-4 can be flown quite
nicely solo as the Thunderbirds did, but not as a weapon system.)


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8