On Feb 27, 10:36*am, "Jay Honeck" wrote:
Just curious... *What is your definition of "Iraq succeeding"? *I must
admit, I've been watching... and I haven't been seeing anything I
would define as "success" -- Certainly not when the total costs of war
(in $$$ and lives and the global perception of our country) are
factored in...

Gosh, even the mainstream media here in America -- normally anything but
Bush allies -- have been documenting our success in Iraq over the last six
months (which tells you that it really started probably a year earlier,
given the "impartial journalists" in this country) -- and the non-mainstream
media have been taking note for far longer. *It's hard to believe anyone
could actually ask this question anymore.

The fact that you find it hard to believe that anyone would question
the value or success of the war speaks volumes about you clouded view
of reality.


General Petraeus has found the right mix of "carrots and sticks" in working
with the various tribes in Iraq. *He has worked hard to forge alliances with
the Iraqis to unite against the Al Queda operatives who were laying waste to
their country. *Normal life has returned to most of Iraq, violence is down
to levels that would make large American inner cities envious, and real
progress has been made to eradicate AQ.

Again, I must question your definition of progress... I read (almost)
daily reports of mass killings in Iraq. Which cities in America are
supposed to be envious?

Schools are open, roads have been rebuilt, power plants are back on line,
telecommunications systems are working, commerce is growing, and the latest
polls show Iraqi citizens are increasingly happy with the way things are
going. *Because of "the Surge", our troops are numerous enough to be out
amongst the citizens again, instead of cowering in safe havens, and are
providing a stable sense of law and order that normal Iraqis (and people all
over the world, for that matter) need and want.

In other words, if things keep "improving", Iraq may someday get back
to levels of pre-invasion days. As far as the "increasingly happy"
Iraqi citizens, I'm not sure if that means last year they were 10%
happy and this year they are 15% happy? Please explain. Do you
really think I need and want the sense of law and order that normal
Iraqis currently possess?

By any measure, this is known as "success" -- and even the most rabid
Bush-bashers have been forced to admit it.

Again, the idea of success must take into account all costs, along
with the benefits. You say by any measure the outcome of this
analysis would be positive. Apparently the billions of $$$ spent,
along with the thousands of lives lost or ruined is a small/non-
existant factor in your analysis of the war. Do you stand by your
assertion that the war is a success "by any measure"? Are you really
that narrow-minded? And who are these "Bush-bashers" that were forced
to admit the success of the war? Can you back up that claim?

Both Obama and Clinton, with their calls for retreat, *are looking more out
of step with reality every day -- but it's hurting Hillary's campaign the
worst. * As Iraq fades from public view, and attention is focused on
domestic worries, Obama's message for "change" becomes more compelling.

I guess we'll have to wait for the next Pres. election to see who the
American public believes is "out of step with reality". Although I
must admit I've heard that description used quite a bit the past
couple of years when referencing are current Pres.

Now, of course, you can argue that success took too long, and cost too many
lives, and we shouldn't have invaded, and any of a hundred other
postulations -- but the bottom line is this: *At this point we need a
stable, peaceful, Iraq, allied with us against AQ and radical Islam. * Gen.
Petraeus and the U.S. Army is making that happen, and -- although it's still
a tenuous situation -- it's a beautiful thing to see, after so much
bloodshed and waste.

Yes, I believe "success" (your word, not mine) took too long, cost too
many lives and $$$, and we shouldn't have invaded. And I (unlike you)
actually take those factors into account when I measure the level of
"success" of this war. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on how
successful we have been in creating a stable/peaceful Iraq - one that
is allied with us against QA and radical Islam.
I guess we can just look at your last sentence: You see beauty. I'm
afraid more than a few of us see bloodshed and waste.

--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"