On Jan 9, 6:31*pm, wrote:
On Jan 9, 2:28*pm, wrote:





On Jan 9, 12:52*pm, wrote:

On Jan 8, 10:07*pm, wrote:

On Jan 8, 8:29*pm, wrote:

On Jan 8, 6:09*pm, Tony Verhulst wrote:

If you need to go into controlled airspace without permission

[CFI mode]
I fly in controlled airspace all the time and rarely get permission.
Controlled airspace does not mean that you have to talk to a controller.
Class E airspace is controlled airspace and is the such best example.
The only uncontrolled airspace (in the U.S.) is class G airspace..

Wikipedia, though never authoritative, provides this (accurate)
description -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlled_airspace.

[/CFI mode]

Tony V. CFI-G

Tony,

Thanks for the clarification. Clearly, I ment CLASS A controlled
airspace, vs controlled airspace. Of course, this changes absolutely
everything!

Tom

Waiter, some Lithium for my friend Tom.

Remember the original scenario. Dave finds himself at 18,200' at some
scary number of knots over Vne - IN A SPARROWHAWK. Those things weigh
like 145 pounds empty - not exactly the aircraft I want to use for
testing aeroelastic theory. He has his transponder on so ATC sees him.
He is monitoring Reno Approach so he would be aware of traffic
reporting in an area of concern to him.

So if I am Dave in that situation I'm first of all trying to not poop
in my pants. Second, I am trying to get the airspeed down quickly but
without overstresing the airplane or changing the loading in a way
that sets off flutter (a big unknown on what to do there, so more
pucker in the old sphincter). Third, I am getting the boards out as
soon as I feel safe to do so and pushing back over for the quickest
decent I can safely manage. The whole operation is maybe 45 seconds of
pure adrenaline.

So somewhere in here Dave gets to stop thinking aviate and start
thinking navigate. The stop at navigate is short (Dave knows where he
is). So now he can move on to communicate. So the relevant question
is, where does Dave make the transition from aviate through navigate
up to communicate? All while still holding his bowels. Is it the
instant he gets below Vne? While he's still maybe 30 degrees nose up
and losing airspeed? Before the zero-G push over, popping the
divebreaks for the 45-degree decent to 18,000' and below? Is is during
the decent? Is it before the pullup? Or does Dave just push forward on
the stick to get immediately back below below 18k, poop his pants, and
wait for permission to save his own life (that is, should he jump
straight to communicate - probably in falsetto).

One could also make the argument that Dave pull up, get down to a
reasonable speed, pause at 19k, call ATC and have a conversation about
what to do before going back into aviate mode for a more sedate decent
where multitasking is again fully operating for him. That might be a
reasonable course of action, but he will be spending a lot more time
in the Class A and there is probably a question about how long it
takes ATC to sort him out. If he didn't have his transponder on it
might take some time to sort out exactly where he is relative to other
traffic, whether or not he can maintain a constant altitude and
bearing given all the wave up/down, etc. If he didn't have his radio
on ATC then he'd have to locate the freq (if not committed to memory),
dial it up and establish contact all while farting around at 19k.

If he's got nerves of steel and the multitasking ability of a figher
jock making a radio call that's more informative than Tom's self-
described, micro-burst, "I'm busy" would be in order right in the
middle of the highest workload part, but I for one would give him
credit for landing with clean trousers.

Thanks for sharing with us Dave.

9B- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Ok, very funny - you are obviously not trying to make a serious post
here and you should be ignored. Fine, you get your wish. Hopefully no
one else takes anything you say seriously as there are consequences,
some extreme.

Tom- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text

Tom,

There's are several serious points in there - may be too subtle for a
guy who is sometimes right but never uncertain.

Honestly, I thought it was pretty arrogant of you to assert so
stridently what the situation was in the cockpit for Dave and what he
should or shouldn't have done with respect to flying the airplane
versus using the radio. I also thought your choice of adjectives
("neglegent" for instance) was particularly offensive. Finally, you
style of argument where you distort what others say, take ideas out of
context and personally attack anyone who you think might disagree with
you is reminiscent of a precocious 12 year old boy with poor impulse
control.

I also think your advice, and particularly the style in which you give
it doesn't advance the cause of safety.When people see the world in
such sharp contrast and adhere to fixed procedures or slogans at the
expense of thinking and adapting the the situation - that's when
extremely bad things happen.

At least one purpose of this forum is to share the types of incidents
that Dave experienced so we can all think about them, discuss them and
learn. The "you're all knuckleheads let me tell what the only right
answer is" doesn't encourage an open exchange at all.

I thought a little humor might allow you to open up your thinking and
see things from a different perspective - my mistake.

- Andy- Hide quoted text -

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Oh Puhleese, Andy. You call me strident after calling me names. So-
called "humor' generally comes at the expense of someone else.

IMO Dave could have made a radio transmission while flying straight
and level. By his own statement he didn't because he "didn't want to
bother them", not "I was scared ****less". I assume he can do that
while flying the pattern, most pilots can. That was my one - and only
- (initial) contribution to what he could have done differently.

I feel your real objection to my suggestion is your complete aversion
to talking to anyone associated with the FAA. Many glider pilots share
this reluctance, probably because they trained on uncontrolled
airports and never learned the lingo. Some even got the licenses in
gliders w/o radios. The FAA does have a publication on this subject
and is worthwhile reading for any pilot.

Radio communication is one of the cheapest and most effective safety
devices that we have. Period. I once complained (to the FAA) that the
local jump operator was not broadcasting a jump announcement on the
CTAF. It turns out that one of his radios was in-op, and he had to be
on Seattle Center with the other. He was ****ed - but he fixed the
radio. Did I care what he thought about me? HELL NO! I just didn't
want one of his jumpers landing in my lap.

Sometimes you have to be blunt to make a point ("what part of mid-air
don't you understand"). I once witnessed a motorglider accident that
should never have happened: strictly because of poor airmanship. After
making sure the pilot, a friend of mine, was OK I told him his skills
were seriously lacking and he needed additional instruction. I also
told him I would prefer to have a live enemy than a dead friend. He
ended up selling the glider - and we are still friends. Another friend
liked to drink and fly (ultralights), despite our concerns. He is dead
now - after losing control of his ultralight while under the
influence. If you haven't figured it out yet, I take safety very
seriously and will take whatever steps I feel that are necessary to
correct a safety concern. And that includes contacting the FAA (which
I have done several times, mostly with positive outcomes). At this
point I do not think that that is necessary or helpful, as I believe
(or hope) that Dave has got the message, the most important is don't
get yourself into that position to begin with. I don't think you will
argue with that.

Let's call a truce - I don't think there is much more to be gained
here and I don't think that we are really that much in disagreement.

Tom- Hide quoted text -

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Fair enough Tom.

Blunt's okay with me. When a post denigrates the motives or
intelligence of ones interlocutors it's over the line IMHO - plus you
lose your audience.

Andy