"Michael 182" wrote in message
news:B1T1c.177980$jk2.656980@attbi_s53...

"Tom Sixkiller" wrote in message
...

"Michael 182" wrote in message
news:QJS1c.177934$jk2.656404@attbi_s53...
Jay,

You seem to confuse being a liberal with being a socialist. I am a
life
long
liberal - I believe that government and industry has a responsibility
to
help those in need, that the environment needs extensive protecting,
that
most social programs do enough good to outweigh the inherent waste and
transfer costs...

The RESPONSIBILITY for those is need is those people themselves.

I respectfully disagree. It is the responsibility of the fortunate to help
the less fortunate.

By what logic is it their RESPONSIBILITY. You can't have someone responsible
for some else without alievating the individuals responsibility for
themself.

Almost everyone believe this to some degree, hence the
extensive charitable contribution structure.

You're conflating altruism (duty) with benevolence (good hearted). Every
tyrant of recent history preached altruism.


Perhaps I lean toward more
redistribution than you, and different methods. But I don't want to live
in
a society where we ignore hardship.

You're version is charity at gun point...coercive. That's sick because it's
a complete inversion.



I am also a confirmed capitalist. I built a company with over 300
employees
over a 15 year period. I sold it for enough money to enjoy a
comfortable
retirement in my mid 40's, and started another company last year when
I
found retirement boring. I've paid pretty extensive taxes - well worth
it
for the privilege of living in the USA.

You're living the the USA is your RIGHT, not a priviledge.

It's both a right and a priviledge. They are not mutually exclusive.

It's perhaps the perfect example of a contradiction.

For some reason conservatives have stereotyped liberals as
anti-business
and
anti-patriotic. Neither is the case.

Well, the evidence is sure strong enough.

What evidence? This is the stereotype I was referring to.

Geez...how much time and bandwdith do you have for examples?



You may look up George McGovern's quote about the failure of his
business
after retiring from the Senate -- something about "If I'd known then
what
I
know now, my voting records would have been much different."

George McGovern is a great example. He was a patriotic war hero and
clearly
a liberal. His realization that the governmental burdens on small
businesses
were too extensive came, unfortunately, too late in his life for his
voting
to help the problem. I disliked many government intrusions on my business.

Now from that...jump off on a tangent to -

This isn't a liberal/conservative issue. For all the party line about
shrinking government, it has expanded dramatically under Republican rule.
Conservatives have been no more successful than liberals in streamlining
the
government/business relationship.

There should not BE a government/business relationship...anymore than there
should be a religion/government relationship, or a education/government
relationship.

You're doing a fine job of upholding the stereotype you deride, particularly
with your equivocating.