On 06/30/06 15:44, Jose wrote:
Perhaps I am not sufficiently clarifying the objective he it is to
enable P1 to fly the (N-reg) plane and log it, under actual IFR,
without P2 being an instructor.

If it is legal, what could P1 log it as? Surely he can't log
instrument time unless P2 is a CFII?

In the United States, it is legal.

P1 (non instrument rated but otherwise current)
P2 (instrument rated and current)

To BE PIC, one must be current and rated for the aircraft and the
conditions.

.... just aircraft - not conditions. If the pilot flying is sole manipulator
of the controls of an aircraft in which he is rated (category/class), then
he can log PIC. It doesn't matter what the weather conditions are (VMC/IMC/
Day/Night, etc.)


To LOG PIC it is not necessary to BE PIC. One can BE PIC
without being able to LOG PIC.

Under the conditions noted (IMC, IFR), P1 cannot BE PIC. P2 can be PIC.
Therefore, P2 must be PIC to make the flight legal. This (by itself)
does not allow him to log PIC time.

P2, as sole manipulator, can log PIC time, even though he is not PIC.

All correct.


==

Now change the conditions slightly. VMC, IFR. P1 still cannot BE PIC.
P2 is required to be PIC. If P1 (sole manipulator) is not wearing a
hood, then no safety pilot is required, so P2 is not a required crew
member. If P1 is under the hood, then a safety pilot is required. I am
not clear on whether this is sufficient (as in VMC, VFR) to allow both
to log PIC, since the flight COULD NOT TAKE PLACE (legally) without P2's
instrument rating, whereas the VMC, VFR flight COULD take place without
P2's instrument rating. I'm inclined to think that both pilots could
log PIC time in this case, and only P2 could BE PIC.

This is the argument I made some time ago, and two or three folks
convinced me that this doesn't cause a second crew member requirement.

I still think it does, though...


VMC, VFR, with nobody under the hood - No safety pilot is required. The
sole manipulator gets to log PIC time. Either pilot may BE PIC, but
being PIC does not (by itself) allow one to log PIC time.

VMC, VFR, with P1 under the hood. P2, the safety pilot, is a required
crewmember. P1 (rated for the aircraft and conditions) MAY be PIC, but
P2 may also be PIC. Treating these conditions separately:

...if P2 is PIC, he can also LOG PIC time as "pilot in command where
more than one pilot is required". (this is specifically allowed in the
regs and the "letters of clarification"). P1 (sole manipulator) may
also log PIC time, so two pilots get to log PIC time even though only
one is actually the PIC.

...if P2 is NOT PIC, then P1 MUST be PIC. He may log PIC time as sole
manipulator, and also as "pilot in command where more than one pilot is
required". (he doesn't get double hours though. In this case, P2
may choose to log SIC time, as a required crewmember. This is what I do
(it's my only SIC time; although I have no interest in flying commercial
jets, I have heard that those hiring like to see SIC time as it shows
crew management experience).

IMC, VFR. This is an illegal flight, and nobody should log anything.

Jose



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA