Eunometic wrote in message ...
"Geoffrey Sinclair" wrote in message
...
Eunometic wrote in message ...


(snip)

The general claims are that they took no losses due to enemy (RAF)
action and although this might be in dispute they certainbly can't be
described as 'heavy'.

So tell us the losses, given in 1944 when the Little Blitz was started
the force had 35 He177s in a force of 550 bombers. How many
He177 sorties?

The He177 first appeared over the UK in 1942, as part of trials,
but was mainly used in the west in anti shipping operations. The
first He177 destroyed over the UK was on 21 January 1944. The
RAF collected the wreckage of 4 He177s in the period 23 February
to 2 March 1944, from crash sites in England.

As for the He177, the tactic was to climb to over 20,000 feet
over France then spend the rest of the flight to and from
London in a shallow dive. As for the claim the RAF failed
to shoot one down, RAF mosquito night fighters made claims
for 8 He177s in the first 4 months of 1944, some of which at
least have been confirmed post war. Who are the people
making the claims there were no He177 combat losses, given
all the Luftwaffe would have had is a failed to return?

It has been claimed. I will track them down.

To repeat myself,

The first He177 destroyed over the UK was on 21 January 1944. The
RAF collected the wreckage of 4 He177s in the period 23 February
to 2 March 1944, from crash sites in England.

Rather hard to claim no losses when the RAF had at least 5
wrecks to look at.

Also note many of the raids were on the ports being used for
Overlord, which flatters the bomber performance since they
effectively did not cross the British coast.

According to Alfred Price's Luftwaffe Data
Book on 27 July 1942 I/KG40 had 16 out of 30 He177s
operational, on 17 May 1943 there was 1 unserviceable He177
in Luftflotte 3, there were another 56 He177s present in
Lufttwaffenbefelshaber Mitte (Germany) of which 26 were
serviceable. On 31 May 1944 Luftflotte 3 held around 50 to 60
He177s in KG40, around 40 serviceable, with Luftflotte Reich
holding some 157 in KG1 and KG100, of which 42 were
serviceable.

Nice data but irrelevent to combat losses.


Not really, losing 1 out of 1,000 is low, losing 1 out of 5 is high
losses. For example on 18 April 1944 the Luftwaffe sent 125
bombers to London, 5 of which were He177s.

(snip)

See above for other reasons why interception was hard, and
the bombers came from France, rather hard to stay in a dive
from Germany to England, especially one steep enough to do
400 mph in an aircraft with a top speed of around 300 mph.

Presumably they would not begin their diving attack immediatly if this
was the Hi-lo-Hi attack profile.

So the claim is the He177s came from Germany, which would
reduce the bomb load for a start. The information I have is they
came from France, went high, stayed in a dive to the target and
left at low altitude, no climb on the way out.

Rather strange to bomb London and the channel ports from
Germany when the French airfields were closer.

(snip)


You want lots of fuel if you are going to climb high and then
try and stay in a 400 mph dive for a long time. You do not want
a big bomb load if your objective is to climb high and fly fast.

Now add the fact one or two of the bomb bays were often blanked off.
My bet is each bomb bay could carry a 2 1,000 kg bombs, so in theory
if all three were available you end up with 6,000 kg, but in practice it
would seem the maximum internal load was 2,000 or 4,000 kg, given
the bomb bay blanking.

That sounds like a faith based answer.

No, straight logic, 3 bomb bays of the same size, given some
references talk about 2 1,000 KG bombs as the internal load
it becomes quite clear, 2,000 KG is clearly to low given the
three bomb bays even given the bomb bays were shallow, since
there was a 1,520 litre fuel tank over each. If the bay was blanked
off the relevant tank could be changed to a 3,450 litre one.

If the 2,800 kg figure for internal bomb load for the A-5 is correct
it would mean the version being quoted has at least one of the
original bays was blanked off during production.

The A-5/R6 was the version that came with only one bomb bay.

A substantial internal bombload comparable or slightly superior to
unmodified allied 4 engined heavies is most likely. I doubt blanking
was the issue however.

Ah yes, we are back to faith based answers. It is probable the
He177 with all bomb bays in operation could carry around 6,000
KG of bombs internally, at least in some versions. The point is
the modifications to carry the glider bombs reduced internal bomb
capacity and upped weights, the wing strengthening, and it was
largely the modified bombers that ended up bombing England.

The He177 had a lower useful load than the standard allied heavies.

The initial He177 units used against England in early 1944 were
3rd staffel I/KG 100 and 1st staffel I/KG 40.

There were variants of the He 177 for instance apart from the He 177
A3 and He 177 A5 there were subdivisions of the aircraft to He 177
A5/R2 or A5/R4 possibly representing maritime and land attack versions
with or without part of the bombay blanked and with racks added of to
carry a torpedoes or mines or misslies to bulky.

I suspect the "R" refers to "rucksatz" or field conversion kits the
Luftwaffe was fond of using to adpat its aircraft.

More typically
1000kg of bombs would be carried internally.

Clearly preposterous.

Ah yes, the faith based answer.

Then you are agreeing with Wilshaw that the He 177, a bomber the size
of a Lancaster,B17,Liberator with a bomb bay doors that extend a
substantial length of the fueselage probably carried only 1000kg of
bombs at a time a FW 190 single engined fighter carried more than
this?

Let us start with the fact the He177s had been modified to carry
the glider bombs, modifications which included the bomb bay
blanking off, thereby reducing their internal capacity. Then we
add the tactics, fly as high as possible and stay in a dive over
England, a dive steep enough to convert an around 260 mph
maximum continuous cruise to a ground speed of 400 mph.
Noting economical cruise was 210 mph at 20,000 feet. The
dive angle was steep enough to up speed by around 50%.

So no external loads and keep the internal weights down, above
average fuel for the high climb and fast cruise. My point is there
is a good chance the He177s used against England were only
carrying something in the 1 to 2,000 KG range thanks to their
modifications and the penalties extracted by the defences. Rather
like the fact Lancasters could carry 14,000 pounds of bombs to
Berlin but rarely went beyond 10,000 pounds in order keep
performance acceptable given the defences.


Also if the weights are correct the He177 useful load was around
3 tons less than the B-17G and the Lancaster. And note the depth
of the bomb bays, given the fuselage fuel tanks.

Internet resources might be in dispute but there would be books with
complete Luftwaffe bomb loading plans for the aircraft available we
can check up on.

So let us know what you find.

Presumably you have noted while
the B-17 could carry 12,800 pounds internally it often operated
with 4 to 5,000 pound bomb loads? Similar for other heavy bombers.
Bomb load depends on mission. The mission profile of the He177
in 1944 would indicate bomb loads well below maximum.

Weight does not impeded dive speed as much as it impedes top speed and
climb.

Last time I checked weight stops you from flying high enough to
stay in a 400mph dive for a long time. The He177 was not a high
flyer, service ceiling around 22,000 feet at maximum load, around
20 minutes to 20,000 feet.

There is a difference between the theoretical performance of the
different types and the way they were used on operations.

Geoffrey Sinclair
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