On Tuesday, August 11, 2015 at 7:47:25 PM UTC-4, Andy Blackburn wrote:
On Tuesday, August 11, 2015 at 4:14:08 PM UTC-7, wrote:
My experience is that the cylinder start, with the top well below cloud base, tends to make pilots more likely to make "soaring condition" related starts as opposed to tactical starts. The ability to start over a wide area, and through the top adds an opportunity for a pilot to try to win the start against the other pilots. I think also, due to variations by pilots, tends slightly to spread pilots and reduce gaggle flying. Yes, you can lock onto your competitor, but I think there is a bit less than one sees with a line.
UH

Yup - that's consistent with what I've seen looking at a bunch of starts before and after start out the top was implemented. A slight tendency to try to win the start with a better climb which tends to spread people out a bit. Ironically, In the starts I looked at people who started out the side tended to find stronger initial climbs. I'm sure it varies.

9B

You all know Ill be back next year either way...

That said, I think the time has come to start moving the "dials" a bit more (than has been happening recently with the RC) and then assess the actual behaviors that result (rather than trying to debate what we "think" will happen). If, for example we decided to institute the start gate time limit (thirty minutes or one hour, whatever), would it really be that big of a deal? Maybe it would solve some of the problems.

It would be interesting to see the behavior if on a predicted 5 knot day, one found themselves in a 4.5 kt (and has only found 3.5 kt so far) knot climb with 10 minutes until the start time limit expires. Perhaps one will decide to start rather than a) get stuck with 3.5 later or b) simply waiting around with the pack all afternoon. Maybe many would start earlier rather than risk getting very close to the time limit and risking to consequences.. It actually makes taking a strong climb early a potential advantage. Its hard to predict exaclty how that small change would affect the "game" other than...I basically guarantee...on average we will all be on course sooner than today and we will spend less time in the "circle of death."

I am all for Stealth Mode now by the way, 100%. See, I'm flexible. I think that is clearly out of control. I hope that passes.

In terms of score sheets, I think the top dogs (XG, DJ, DB, KM, ect, etc) are still going to win many of the major contests regardless. In fact, I think the results will mainly remain the same top to bottom no matter what rules we adopt. Im not expecting any real change in results. This is not why I am arguing here. Im arguing because I remain very concerned about start safety and wasting time there vs. getting out on course. Im still shocked how many want to continue the possibility of the extended, spinning, pre-start fur-balls we all so enjoy.

Yes, I admit it. I absolutely hate having to keep track of or wait around with the gaggle(s) and playing the start game when its clearly very soar-able out on course (there is a reason they open the start gate you know!). I often start early anyway knowing full well that some will successfully grind me down eventually out the task (you know who you are). I think I will need to toughen up on that clear weakness if we continue to do "what we are doing" as its a significant give away. I hate that. I may have to play "the game" even more than now.

This is how they did it in the "glory days?" I thought the "glory days" each pilot had a start time and flew thru a defined start gate? What did I miss? IMO, what we do in sailplane contests today is a form of "time trailing" on a fairly free course (see HAT) and a key part of this game is jockeying (or simply out-waiting) to get into a position to "draft up" on the gang (or key pilot) ahead. At least in a Grand Prix you don't gain anything by leeching on. Your all even. And in SGP the scoring favors the winner of the day, greatly. So their is motivation to break the pack (just staying with the pack is not enough).

Finally, in the 5 years I have been flying sailplane contests, I have not seen any discernible change in start gate behavior or patterns. The 2 minute rule is a big, big player in the scariness. I understand the reasoning for the rule but think the behavior is too costly.

Here is a thought. Why is this below max altitude so short (2 min)? Especially considering that start gates are UNLIMITED! Have we considered, for example, a 10 minute below max altitude? Imagine how that would change the game. Or how about you have to go 500 feet below max altitude to reset? At current, one can quickly spiral down from above the limit and keep a lot of energy going in that 2 minutes. Especially if the thermal is wide, strong and well marked by other competitors. Of course this is highly dangerous. I think the problem is that 2 min is really not long enough to settle everyone down. In other common scenarios, one can keep going up, then changing your mind, going down, waiting 2 min, etc, etc, etc. With only 2 min....one can see others leave (make an obvious start) and then quickly descend, wait 2 min, climb back up and start and only be 3-4 minutes behind the "target." An almost perfect leech (draft) up position.

Just a thought.

Sean