On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 11:40:58 PM UTC-7, Andy Blackburn wrote:
Boy, is this a tough crowd!

People call it like they see it, true.

For the record, the number of 80 entrants was from someone participating in the event, but they expected some no-shows. So I do not apologize for that information.

Apology noted. Also for the record, the SSA event page clearly stated the 65 limit and that the event was oversubscribed. Also, the participant list detailed "confirmed" vs "wait list" so no matter what bad info you may have received, it would have been simple to verify that the info was bad before firing off a post. This is a public forum and predicting fatalities is about as irresponsible as you can get when your facts are wrong.

Second, I didn't make a "thinly veiled" criticism of the event, I DIRECTLY criticized it!

And you didn't have the facts on your side (with regard to actual participants, nor any specific knowledge of the airport facilities, operations or surrounding landable fields when you did it so I don't see how this clarification represents an improvement.

Third, calling me a "troll" or an "asshole" or whatever is childish and reflects much more on the author than myself. Get real, try being an adult for a change!

Okay, but you kind of had it coming by predicting fatalities and then doubling down when the facts turned against you.

I never predicted fatalities. You are wrong and should correct that.


Finally, only one of you, indirectly, addressed the original question: how many is too many? Having an efficiently run organization has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with this issue!! That only means the gliders are launched faster; once they are in the air the event organizer is out of the picture. Most of you guys are trying to defend Bruno - that IS NOT the issue! The issue is how many gliders can a site accommodate safely. And the Big Sky theory is BUNK! You get a marginal day and that theory is out the window. And on good days it is bunk as well; lift organizes itself into streets that pilots fly at high speed at each other.

I think you mostly missed the point. The criticism isn't with the theoretical question of what is the maximum capacity of a glider site or even asking it about a specific site. It was that you didn't ask the question, you asserted an answer without any demonstrable knowledge of the circumstances of the event or even the correct number of participants.

The title of the thread is "When is too many at a glider meet" - I certainly asked the question and proffered my opinion that 60 is too many and 40 would be ok.


Specifically, for Nephi, it is really hard to construct a scenario where 60 (or 80) gliders launched 90-plus minutes apart and flying at altitudes from 6,000 to as much as 17,000 feet all get knocked out of the sky by a storm at exactly the same time (where none of them have headed out on course to escape the approaching storm) such that none can orbit more than 30 seconds, all the ground help is incapacitated, everyone lands midfield and just sits in their glider and no one decides to use the cross runway, the 7000x250 feet of turf to the west, the infield or any of the three dozen landable fields within range of the downwind entry point. Is there a theoretical limit? Probably, but your "IMHO" assertion was, whether you meant it or not, a misinformed slander of an event that has had a lot of thought put into operations and specific lessons from prior events. Also, raising a midair concern and reiterating it now for an event that was PowerFLARM mandatory, seems particularly ill-advised (and "ready!-fire!-aim!).

Have you actually flown this country? It is not only possible, it has happened.


Safety just doesn't seem to be a high priority here - one of my detractors here has been "disinvited" from an airport for repeated unsafe flying practices.

Not so - safety gets discussed regularly on r.a.s, generally with a great deal of seriousness. Also, an ad hominem criticism of the flying skills of a poster doesn't make his points incorrect nor does it validate the comment from you he might be criticizing. It's almost entirely irrelevant and comes across as a kind of "your momma" retort.

That poster's sole point was that I was an asshole. Sounds like the kettle calling the pot black.


Okay, fire away, I can take it.

If you insist. :-)

Really Tom, it's not asking questions about safe operations that gets people jumping to defend Nephi, it's the assertion that they did it wrong and you know better. You don't. Your facts were wrong and your theories about what might happen were inconsistent with the operations and airport layout. When you double down on it you just dig the hole deeper. It is possible that some of the responses you got didn't come from daredevil morons who lack your insight or depth of experience operating large-scale glider events at Nephi or anywhere else.

My primary concern is getting a large number of gliders airborne in a small area at the same time. The airport layout has NOTHING to do with this concern. You are missing the fundamental point I was making, along with most of the others.


There's a vast difference between making the last debating point and being right. A little active listening would go a long way. This is a public forum and wild assertions, if they stand uncorrected, can do damage to events, reputations and the sport more broadly.

Most of the posters here had their ears shut off, including you.


With regards,

Andy
9B