On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 17:24:12 -0500, "John Doe"
wrote in qMsIf.30302$Dh.17391@dukeread04::
"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 11 Feb 2006 12:19:25 -0700, Chris Schmelzer
wrote in ::
In article ,
Larry Dighera wrote:
On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 21:13:11 -0500, Ronald Gardner
wrote in ::
I suspect gear and flaps down speed of a F15 to be around 110 or 120
knots.
Unfortunately, that doesn't prevent F-15s from endangering the public
by exceeding the 250 knot speed limit below 10,000'.
Umm, military has never been restricted to the 250knot speed.
There has been an exemption for military aircraft for some time.
You really think they are 'endangering the public' when they do this?
I believe it is impossible to see fighter aircraft in time to avoid
them, so being a member of the public, I believe I'm endangered by
their high speed below 10,000'.
Maybe you shouldn't be flying then. Most military fighter aircraft are
several times larger than GA aircraft.
Unfortunately, military fighter aircraft conspicuity is not enhanced
by their gray paint nor their inability to burn a landing light
without lowering their gear.
Fighter pilots train to pick up
tally's on other fighters out to 10 miles and beyond. Try that with a GA
sized aircraft. That's at closure rates of two supersonic aircraft which
will be around 1000+kts Vc. Our training rules state that pure pursuit must
be ceased by 9000' in order to avoid busting a 500' safety bubble during a
head on attack.
My point is, spend less time looking at your artificial horizon and more
time looking at the window and you'd be suprised on how far away you can see
the larger airplanes.
I'm much more concerned about hitting a C-152 than I am about an F-15
because it's small size.
There's no question, that scanning for conflicting traffic is the
first priority. Unfortunately, it's nearly impossible to see a
high-speed fighter, with its small frontal area, gray paint, and no
landing light, in time to avoid it.
Reference:
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http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/sa15.pdf
An experimental scan training course conducted with military pilots
found the average time needed to conduct the operations essential to
flying the airplane was 20 seconds – 17 seconds for the outside scan,
and three seconds for the panel scan. Without the benefit of intensive
military training, most pilots will need more time than this. But as
demonstrated by the military pilots, considerably more time should be
spent on the external scan than the panel scan.
Next point. Their "high speed below 10,000'" is limited to 300kts. A
whopping 50kts faster than FAA regs.
FAR 91.117 (d) states:
(d) If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation
is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section,
the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed.
And, the November 16, 2000 AF report states:
(2) According to Air Force T.O. 1F-16CG-1 Flight Manual,
page 6-3, the F-16CG should be operated at a minimum airspeed
of 300 KIAS during normal cruise operations below 10,000 ft.
So, a thinking individual might construe this to mean that F-16s
should be operated at ~300 KIAS to comply with FAR 91.117.
However, other aircraft may have significantly higher minimum safe
airspeeds, and may thus be operated at speeds in excess of 300 knots
below 10,000'. So your contention that military aircraft only operate
at 50 knots above the 250 knot speed limit mandated in FAR 91.117 is
not exactly correct, and in the case of MTRs, it is in error by
hundreds of knots.
That actually reduces the risk of
collision because in the event that a fighter does not see you till late,
his jet has the energy availble to manauever agressively enough to avoid a
collision. At 250kts and slower a fighter actually takes longer to get out
of your way and increases the risk of a collision.
In the November 16, 2000 MAC, it was the Cessna unsuccessfully
attempting to maneuver out of the path of the F-16 despite the F-16's
high energy.
They are not out there screaming around at 500kts below 10k just for the
heck of it.
No. They're "screaming around at 500kts below 10k" on MTRs.
The only place fighters are allowed above 300kts below 10,000' is in special
use airspace. (VR/IR low levels, MOAs, restricted airspace, etc)
Are you aware that Military Training Routes are not Special Use
Airspace?* MTRs and MOAs are joint use airspace; there's no
regulation preventing non-military flights from operating within MOAs
and MTRs.
*
http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/PCG/S.HTM
Do you think they don't know where YOUR aircraft is long before you see
them?
Yes. That is exactly what I think. Not only that, I believe that
there are military fighter pilots who don't care where my aircraft is
either.
You don't have a clue pal.
Perhaps. But I can cite several mishaps where military aircraft have
collided with civil aircraft apparently without seeing them in time to
avoid them.
1) While most fighter pilots have a very good radar which has alot of great
capability, it doesn't always mean your aircraft is within it's scan.
Nothing is perfect. While he may have SA on your position 95% of the time,
he is still responsible for VFR rules and must see and avoid like everyone
else.
Unfortunately, it is the civil pilot who pays the ultimate price when
the military pilot(s) errors result in a MAC:
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...26X00109&key=2
NTSB Identification: CHI05FA055B
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Tuesday, January 18, 2005 in Hollister, OK
Aircraft: Air Tractor AT-502B, registration: N8526M
Injuries: 1 Fatal, 1 Minor, 1 Uninjured.
This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain
errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final
report has been completed.
On [Tuesday] January 18, 2005, approximately 1128 central standard
time, an Air Tractor AT-502B single-engine agricultural airplane,
N8526M, and a Cessna T-37B, a twin-turbojet military trainer, tail
number 66008003, operating under the call sign Cider 21, were
destroyed following a midair collision during cruise flight near
Hollister, Oklahoma. The AT-502B was registered to a private
individual and operated by a commercial pilot. The T-37B was
registered to and operated by the United States Air Force (USAF). The
commercial pilot in the AT-502B was fatally injured. The USAF flight
instructor pilot was not injured and the USAF student pilot sustained
minor injuries. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed and a
flight plan was not filed for the AT-502B, who was operating under 14
Code of Federal Regulations Part 91 for the ferry flight. An
instrument rules flight plan was filed for the T-37B, who was
operating under Air Force Instructions (AFI) 11-202, Volume III. The
cross-country flight for the AT-502B flight originated from the Olney
Municipal Airport, near Olney, Texas, approximately 1100, and was
destined for Huron, South Dakota, with an intermediate fuel stop. The
local flight for the T-37B originated from the Sheppard Air Force Base
(SPS), near Wichita Falls, Texas, approximately 1022.
According to company personnel from an Air Tractor dealership in
Arkansas, the pilot was hired to ferry the recently purchased AT-502B
to the new owner in Huron, South Dakota, with an intermediate
refueling stop in Hutchinson, Kansas. Company personnel at the Air
Tractor factory located in Olney, Texas, reported that the AT-502B was
equipped with basic visual flight rules (VFR) instruments and was not
equipped with any radios or a transponder. Company personnel added
that the pilot had a hand held aircraft radio transmitter, a hand held
Garmin 295 GPS unit, and various maps prior to departure.
During an interview with the NTSB investigator-in-charge (IIC), the
USAF flight instructor and student pilot reported that they were on a
routine mission training flight (C2803). After a non-eventful
departure from SPS, they performed two normal overhead approaches to
SPS before being cleared into the Military Operations Area (MOA). Once
in the MOA, the training flight completed one loop, a barrel roll, two
power on stalls, one spin recovery, two spin prevents, traffic pattern
stalls, and slow flight. After completing the series of high altitude
maneuvers, the training flight received radar vectors to the RANCH
intersection and then to the Frederick Municipal Airport (FDR), near
Frederick, Oklahoma, which is commonly referred to by the USAF as
"Hacker." As the flight descended to an altitude of 6,000 feet, the
instructor noted the bottom of the overcast cloud ceiling to be
between 6,000 and 6,500 feet mean sea level (msl).
After arriving at Hacker, the training flight performed a straight in
no flap landing, and requested left closed traffic. After completing a
normal overhead approach and a single-engine landing, the flight
proceeded to depart Hacker's airspace to the east and climbed to 5,500
feet msl.
During this time, the USAF student pilot performed the en route
portion of his checklist and contacted USAF Radar Approach Control
(Rapcon) to notify them they were en route back to Sheppard Air Force
Base and requested the "home plate" arrival.
Rapcon advised the flight that they had radar contact, and to descend
to 5,000 feet msl on a heading of 100 degrees.
After leveling off at 5,000 feet msl at an indicated airspeed of 200
knots, the flight instructor took control of the T-37B. The instructor
stated that he briefly scanned at the student pilot's altimeter on the
left side of the instrument panel (a standard practice for T-37 flight
instructors). As he was turning his head back to the right, he noticed
a "high visibility yellow airplane" out of the right corner of his
eye. The student pilot stated that as the flight instructor took
control of the aircraft, he scanned outside the airplane to the left,
and started to look back to the right when he saw the yellow Air
Tractor heading towards the right side of the T-37B.
Subsequently, the instructor and student pilot recalled feeling a
spinning sensation, and rolling inverted. Both the instructor and
student pilot initiated emergency egress procedures and ejected from
the aircraft.
The T-37B and AT-502B impacted farm fields about 3.5 miles east of
Hollister, Oklahoma. Both aircraft were partially consumed by a post
impact fire.
A witness located north of the accident site reported in a written
statement that he observed an aircraft descending rapidly in a nose
down attitude and on fire prior to losing sight of it behind a tree
line. Subsequently, the witness observed a second aircraft spinning in
a nose down attitude, and it was missing a wing. The witness added
that a plume of smoke was originating from the airplane but he didn't
see any flames. As the airplane continued to descend, he noticed two
parachutes on each side of the airplane and he decided to proceed to
the area to see if he could assist the pilots.
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http://www.kfdx.com/news/default.asp...ownews&id=7511
FAA STATES CROP DUSTER PILOT DIDN`T VIOLATE AIRSPACE
Friday, January 21, 2005
A Federal Aviation Administration official says the pilot of a crop
duster violated no rules before his plane and an Air Force training
jet collided in mid-air in Southwestern Oklahoma.
Pilot Dierk Nash of Wheatley, Arkansas died in the collision and crash
Tuesday in a military operating area over Tillman County, Oklahoma.
Nash was flying the plane from Texas to a customer in South Dakota and
the jet flown by Captain Christopher Otis and Second Lieutenant
Roderick James was returning to Sheppard Air Force Base. Otis and
James parachuted safely from the jet before it crashed. FAA spokesman
John Clabes says Nash had a clean flight record and was not in
violation of any rule as far as investigators can tell. The FAA is
assisting the National Transportation Safety Board`s investigation of
the crash. Sheppard Air Force Base is conducting its own investigation
in cooperation with the FAA and the NTSB.
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