"Peter Duniho" wrote in
:

"Marty Shapiro" wrote in message
...
Hmmm...you were at SFO, in spite of the "effective ban"? Amazing.

The statement was that high fees "effectively ban". Since I knew
in
advance that ALL fees would be waived, the issue of fees was
completely irrelevant. A fee of $0.00 nullifies both the "high" and
"fees" in "high fees".

Okay, I failed to connect those two. Sorry.

Considering how light GA is supposed to be "effectively banned", we
have a surprising number of folks even in this small group of pilots
who have flown into large Class B airports.

For some reason, you have fixated on "effectively" equating to
"completely" or "totally" despite being referred to a perfectly valid
dictionary definition (with usage example) which says otherwise.
You've also managed to drop the "high fees".

The usage example provided here doesn't come close to justifying the
statement as applied to large Class B airports. As far as dropping
the "high fees" statement, I'm not really sure what you're talking
about. The original statement made a claim only with respect to
"landing fees", and while I have not made a conscious effect to
distinguish between landing fees and other fees, accusing me of some
sort of underhanded position shifting makes no sense whatsoever.

Please re-read what you stated and which I quoted in my reply. When
you referred to the surprising number of pilots in this group who have
flown into class B airports, you left out the qualifier "high fee". If a
surprising number of pilots in this group have flown a light GA aircraft
into a high fee class B, and they had to pay the fee, that would support
your argument. Just flying into a class B does not, as there are class B
airports with no fees.


Fees are a deterrent to landing at
an airport. The higher the fees, the more of a deterrent they are.
If you
make them high enough, you effectively (but not totally) ban light GA
aircraft unless no viable alternative exists.

You would see fewer light GA aircraft at large Class B airports, even
if the fees were zero.

Really? This will really surprise at least two Class B with over 100
single engine aircraft based there. Of course, these class B do NOT charge
a landing fee to light GA aircraft.

Lets take a look at data from AirNav for 2 high fee and 2 zero fee
class B airport:

High fee 1:

Aircraft based on the field: 18
Single engine airplanes: 1
Multi engine airplanes: 3
Jet airplanes: 12
Helicopters: 2

Aircraft operations: avg 965/day
70% commercial
25% air taxi
5% transient general aviation
1% military

High fee 2: (AirNav shows no aircraft based here)

Aircraft operations: avg 760/day
87% air carriers
11% commuters
2% transient general aviation
1% military

No fee 1:

Aircraft based on the field: 263
Single engine airplanes: 115
Multi engine airplanes: 55
Jet airplanes: 45
Helicopters: 16
Military aircraft: 32

Aircraft operations: avg 886/day
55% commercial
24% transient general aviation
15% air taxi
5% military
2% local general aviation

No fee 2:

Aircraft based on the field: 237
Single engine airplanes: 118
Multi engine airplanes: 39
Jet airplanes: 55
Helicopters: 15
Military aircraft: 10

Aircraft operations: avg 1802/day
72% commercial
12% air taxi
11% transient general aviation
4% local general aviation
1% military


If a location is served by both a class B airport and a class C, D, or
G reliever airport, and assuming that fees are and location access are
comparable between the class B and the reliever airport, I suspect most
light GA aircraft pilots would not go to the class B. But, if my
experience as a pilot who learned an flew for many years out of
what is now a class C airport (it was an ARSA airport when I was a student)
comparing notes with pilots who learned at class G airports is typical, I
suspect there is a factor of unfamiliarity with big airports and the co-
requisite radio communications biasing this decision.

Furthermore, you (and the others) insist that "effectively" doesn't
mean "actually", but you apparently refuse to explain just how many
planes can be permitted at an airport before there's no "effective
ban". You've got a great slippery-slope argument going, but when you
look at small airports with fees that also discourage light GA
aircraft (or any other, for that matter), you've either got to claim
light GA aircraft are "effectively banned" there (which would
obviously make no sense), or explain what makes those airports
different from the others where light GA aircraft are "effectively
banned" (ie, what sort of light GA traffic does an airport need to see
before one doesn't consider it "effectively banned").

If you want to continue talking about this "effective ban", your first
step is to define what that means. Clearly light GA aircraft are
using the largest Class B airports in the US, so they clearly are not
really banned. Since you feel you can equivocate on the definition of
"effective", you need to explain just where you're going to draw the
line. Otherwise, the definition you're using can be taken to
ridiculous limits.

If the airport is public use, it can not legally ban light GA
aircraft. All it can do is highly discourage them from landing. One
method of discouraging light GA aircraft from landing is to impose a high
fee. However, if they make the fee prohibitive enough to achieve a
complete ban (which is probably impossible as there is always some one with
deep enough pockets who could pay it) they would then run afoul of the FAA.
One airport authority tried this at their class B and got slammed down by
the FAA.

If you want a definition, I'll give you one. If there are viable
reliever airport(s) at a location with a class B airport, a fee which
effectively bans light GA aircraft at the class B is one where 98% of the
transient light GA aircraft operations at that location take place at the
reliever airport(s).


Once you've defined your "effective ban", then you need to illustrate
that by showing exactly how many light GA aircraft are using the
largest Class B airports, and that that number is dramatically
different from the number that would be using those airports if there
were not any fees (comparing a large Class B airport to even a local
reliever, never mind a small GA-only airport, won't prove anything).

See the above data from AirNav contrasting high fee class B with no
fee class B.


Only one person so far has even pretended to provide actual data
supporting his thesis, and the data turned out to be bogus. It's
hardly a convincing way to demonstrate one's point. I remain
unconvinced that light GA aircraft are "effectively banned" from any
airport, due to landing fees or otherwise.

Pete






--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)