"Tim" wrote in message ...
Travis Marlatte wrote:
"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
...

No, it is required by part 43 et al.



This thread is in reference to an equipment list with weight and balance
information. I don't see that in the portions of part 43 that you quoted (or
anywhere else). What you have shown is that work must be documented. Log
book entries and an updated W&B would satisfy those regs. That implies to
me that one could construct an equipment list from the records but not that
an up to date equipment list is to be maintained.

I really am not trying to be confrontational. In fact, I assume that I'm
missing something because both Steve Ellis and Mike Busch claim that it is
necessary. I just don't see it. And, apparently, neither to many pilots and
A&P's because I have never seen such a list kept up to date (in my admitedly
limited exposure to such things).
-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK


It isn't exactly clear to me - the only thing I see is a reference for
it in part 23 (from Jim's earlier post)- that it has to be part of the
airplane manual. I guess then all other fars about the airplane manual
then come into play. I see nothing in part 91 about it.

I could be wrong. Not a lot of information on this. Certainly not
something that I was taught as a PP student. (And the usual FAR books
that are sold don't even have a part 23 section - I had to look it up
online)


Wow. I'm really struggling here. This thread is about whether an up to date equipment list with weight and balance information is required. Tim, as the original poster, asked about Part 91 operations.

Jim quoted Part 23 - which is relevant but comes no where close to saying than an equipment list is required at all, much less kept up to date. The part he quoted merely said that the location of anything "that can be easily removed, relocated, or replaced" had to be identified - for certification. Once the plane is out of the door of the factory, I don't see how it applies. In fact, the wording is past tense:
§ 23.1589 Loading information.
The following loading information must be furnished:

(a) The weight and location of each item of equipment that
can be easily removed, relocated, or replaced and that is
installed when the airplane was weighed under the
requirement of §23.25.

So, it is clear that an equipment list should be part of the POH of modern planes. But, so far, it doesn't have to be kept up to date. In fact, the regs say that the POH must be preserved and in the plane. Since 23.1589 desribes the list of equipment at the original weighing, that implies that the original list must survive through all of the changes. At best, you could supplement it with an updated list.

The Part 43 stuff is the usual log entry requirements. Nothing about an equipment list.

Part 43 and Part 91 only says that the W&B and other usual docs be updated. Nothing about an equipment list.

Putting all that together, we have an accurate description of the plane as it left the factory. And, logbook entries that describe all the deltas since then. And, a current W&B having applied all those deltas.

Excerpts from "The Savvy Aviator #41: Is Your Equipment List Up-To-Date?" by Mike Busch, AvWeb, February 14, 2007
He quotes his IA, ""Your POH or W&B Report is required to include an up-to-date equipment list, and that list must be revised whenever equipment is added or removed."

Mike explains that the equipment list in his POH was an exhaustive list of all of the possible pieces of equipment at manufacture but that there was no indication of what had actually been installed.

I will agree that this sounds like a violation of Part 23. My 1979 Operating Manual also has an exhaustive list but it does have check marks for the equipment that was installed. Never been updated. In fact, there were modification before it ever left the factory. These are indicated in the logbook - not on the equipment list.

Mike goes on to quote from an FAA publication:
The FAA publication that discusses all this best is FAA-H-8083-1, "Aircraft Weight and Balance Handbook," published in 1999. Quoting from that document:


"An equipment list is furnished with the aircraft which specifies all the required equipment, and all equipment approved for installation in the aircraft. The weight and arm of each item is included on the list, and all equipment installed when the aircraft left the factory is checked.

"When an Aircraft Maintenance Technician adds or removes any item on the equipment list, he or she must change the weight and balance record to indicate the new empty weight and empty-weight CG, and the equipment list is revised to show which equipment is actually installed."

That sounds pretty definitive except for two things. First, this is not regulation. It says that the W&B must be updated but this is not what makes that regulatory. The FARs also say this. Second, the sentence is a bit ambiguous. Does the "must" carry through to the equipment list fragment. To me, it seems more like "must update the W&B and you might as well update the equipment list too." If the FARs made it clear that an up to date equipment list was required, then the interpretation of this publication would also be clear. They don't. It isn't.

For Part 91 operations, an up to date equipment list is not required. Fun to do. Nice to have. But not required.

I sent an email to Mike Busch before this thread got started but I didn't get a reply. Mike, where are you? Care to chime in?

Tim, got your answer yet? If so, let me know 'cause I don't.

-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK