"Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman" wrote in message ...
Jack White wrote:
"Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman" wrote in
message ...
BTov wrote:
(Jack White) wrote in message
. com...
The Eurofighter Typhoon will give the Saudi Armed Forces the
capability maintain air superiority over any country in the Middle
East including Israel.
so what?
Israel has the best pilots and crews in the Middle East, but the
Eurofighter Typhoon is such a superior aircraft with INCREDIBLE BVR
capability superior to any aircraft in the Middle East that even
though Saudis are lazy and spoiled, the Eurofighter Typhoon will
give the Saudis the best Airforce in the Middle East. The only way
Israel can gain back Air Superiority over Saudi Arabia would be if
Israel were to buy tons of F-22 Raptors.
wutever
Saudi Arabia has a much bigger GDP than Israel and has Trillions of
dollars of Oil Reserves so there's no way Israel can on its own
compete with a country like Saudi Arabia in an arms race.
& saudis bemoan poor palistanians while their arab whole is giving
only 5%.. ;L
The only way Israel can gain back air superiority is if US
taxpayers will again have to pay BILLIONS of dollars like they
always do for Israel, this time for Israel to get FREE F-22
Raptors from the US Taxpayers.
it may be interesting to test this eurofighter against arrows..
Arrows are ABMs not SAMs. They are designed to take a Balistic
Missile out at Apogee so nothing hits Israel. They are very
effective at doing that, 100 percent of the tests with real Balistic
Missiles to be interecepted were succesfully hit by the system at
the warhead not the main body as the Patriorts did. The Patriot was
orginally designed to take out high flying aircraft not missiles.
That is why the body of the rocket stage is what got hit by it every
time and the warhead then still fell to earth intact about 1/2 the
time. The US lost most of the first Gulf War Casualties to a "shot
down" SKUD's warhead that hit a building housing a lot of miltiary
personel. The Arrow uses a different system of firing a group of
shaped charges at the warhead secton of the missile and body both.
The real ideal is to force the warhead itself to explode due to the
charges going off on it. Hardly cost effective to shoot down a
plane. Israel has several other means of taking out incoming
aircraft. It has 12 Patriot Batteries, 1000s of SAMs on the ready
and then their air to air capabilities and own air to air misiles
and guns. They never faced even odds 1 to 1 and no matter what
aircraft the enemy flew they shot them all down and lost very few of
their planes to it. I pitty any Arab pilot shot down those at home
confront, he better speak the words I surrender in perfect Hebrew or
he is dead. They common Israeli does not speak the symetic
variation called Arabic. It is not their responsibility to know for
sure the intention of an enemy that comes down in a parachute in
their back yard. Their real responsibility is to shoot first if not
Isreali and ask later.
In joint flight manuvers the Israeli Pilots in the Israeli built
jets went up against US pilots in F116s and though supposedly up
against the best of the best they had a "kill" ratio of 5 to 1. For
every simulated hit on them they had simulated a hit of five US top
pilots flying the most sophisticated fighter made in the world at
the time. Arab Air forces run from IAF pilots or they die, that is
always been the only choices they had and still will have even 20
years from now.
Look, it's obvious that Israeli pilots are the best in the middle east
and perhaps the best in the world, but they're NOT as good as you
think they are either.
I'll give you some examples of why they're not as good as you think
they are.
In the Yom Kippur War even Syria shot down AT LEAST 36 Israeli Air
Force aircraft in a SINGLE DAY.
You are very correct, however do you care to mention the Syian losses that
same day? How about that was the only day they had that airforce intact.
They lost over 90 percent of their entire airforce and pilots in that huge
engagment. The Syrian Airforce was seen heading toward Israel so Israel
Scrambled its Norther Fighters that were designated as ready. That is only
about 50 percent of them. The US Navy would call them the Alert Aircraft
which would be manned and ready if needed. Israelis at that time due to the
war, had 1/2 the pilots in the planes ready to be scrambled at a moments
notice. Syria had sent their entire Airforce thus outnumbering the Israelis
at first contact about 4 to 1. Israel did loose a total of 36 aircraft in
that battle but under 30 Syrian Planes limped back to home and not one ever
penetrated Israeli Airspace, their real objective. That meant the IAF shot
down 12 - 15 planes for every one they lost in that battle. No one rates an
airforce facing larger numbers by all aircraft returning safely. That is
rediculous. Next you will be saying the US army is a joke because they
loose men every day in Iraq still. Get realistic, best never meant no
losses and never meant at time high losses, it means what the *final* result
is. During the Battle of Britain the RAF one night only could get up five
fighters who each shot down over 7 enemy aircraft and all those RAF planes
were lost. Who won in the end of the Battle of Britain, not the Luftwaffa
that is certain. The RAF won that battle by no matter what getting what
they still could in the air and inflicting heavier losses on the Germans
than they suffered.
Those are nice stats, but they still don't prove that Israel is as
good as you said in your original post.
If Israel was as good as you say they are, then why did they lose over
100 aircraft and over 800 tanks in the Yom Kippur War?
Israel only had a population of about 3 million back then and was the
size of New Jersey or maybe even smaller back then.
Over 100 aircraft and over 800 tanks are just too many losses for a
country as small as Israel to sustain and still win a war.
Israel deserves an ASTERISK for winning the Yom Kippur War.
It was Operatinal Nickel Grass(A MASSIVE US resupplying effort to
replace destroyed Israeli equipment) that saved Israel's butt and
allowed Israel to win the Yom Kippur War
That's the whole reason that Sadat made peace with Israel.
Sadat proved to himself that Israel was beatable, but he also
discovered that EVEN if he did well enough to beat Israel, he would
still lose because of Operation Nickel Grass or other similar
operations in the future.
ere were 23 SA-6 Sam Batteries in Syria before the start of the Yom
Kippur War, and at the END OF THE YOM KIPPUR WAR, the Israeli Air
Force was only able to take out 3 of those 23 SA-6 batteries at a
great loss of Israeli Aircraft.
Yet they used that to learn they went against better in the Egyptian
Theater, Syria was a holding action, get it. They were like a thorn not the
main target of the IAF, Egypt that had recrossed the Cannal was more a
threat. However, the Israelis only targetted a total of SAM Batteries in
Syria that their intellegence told them correctly left Damascus open to
air-raids and they did send in bombers once near the end of the war and hit
the Syrian verison of the Penatgon killing all the leading stradigists of
the Syrian Military in one blow. It is not always how many but which ground
targets you take out. Egypt posed a larger threat in the early part of the
war that is why the number of IAF planes in the Norhtern Command was so low
as to not equal the Syrians in number as they had before the war and would
have gone one to one with even a higher kill ratio. The Israeli Pilots
could not have the luxury of cover of a wingman while setting up their shot,
the Syrians could. Had the Command not sent 1/2 the planes from Norther
Israel on day one of the war to fight the stronger better positioned enemy,
they would have not even lost the numbers that they had. Wingmen stay with
their lead, protecting them from being set up for a shot. And if the lead
misses they switch off and the wingman takes lead and tries again. Best
shot on a Jet in air to air is from the rear or about 20 degrees off
straigth on. A wingman's job is to watch for such a set up and break it up
if needed.
The IDF GROUND FORCES did take out a few more of those SA-6 batteries,
but the Israeli Air Force certainly was NOT up to the challenge of
taking on the SA-6 during the Yom Kippur War.
They never tried sir.
I ABSOLUTELY TOTALLY disagree with that statement.
The Israeli Air Force DID TRY and FAIL at trying to take out the SA-6
Sam Batteries, but they suffered GREAT losses and basically decided
that the IAF wasn't up to the job of taking out the SA-6 and left that
job up to the IDF GROND forces.
Out of ALL the weapons systems and aircraft ever used in all the wars
Israel has ever been involved in, the SA-6 during the Yom Kippur War
had the MOST IMPRESSIVE KILL RATIOS against the Israeli Air Force ever
achieved.
It was NOT till Israel recieved F-15s and F-16 during the 80s that
Israel was able to tame the SA-6 in Lebanon, and the SA-6 was OLD
technology by then anyway.
Israel doesn't have aircraft like B-2s, F-117 Nighthawks, or F-22
Raptors and that's why top of the line SAMs are the Israeli Air
Force's Achilles Hell and have probably always been the Israeli Air
Force's Achilles Hell.
BTW, here's proof that the Israeli Air Force did indeed go after the
SA-6 Sam Batteries but did very poorly at dealing with the SA-6 during
the Yom Kippur War.
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaver...8/phantom2.htm
"Egypt entered the war with 106 SAM batteries, while Syria had a
further 23.
On the morning of Sunday, October 7th, a massive attack was about to
be launched against Egyptian air bases but it was called off in view
of the desperate situation on the Golan Heights. Under operation
"Doogman 5B" (model 5B) the IAF launched dozens of its F-4s and A-4s
against the Syrian SAM array on the Heights. Having gone in with
insufficient intelligence against a deadly opponent, six Phantoms were
lost during that single day. With only a single SAM battery destroyed,
October 7th was a resounding defeat and the IAF avoided confronting
the Syrian SAMs again. By the end of the war the IAF had destroyed
only 3 Syrian batteries, leaving most of the work to IDF ground
forces."
http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/f4_41.html
On October 7, Phantoms launched an attack against Syrian SAM sites,
but the Syrian forces were now equipped with the new Soviet-built SA-6
Gainful mobile surface-to-air missile. Syrian forces were also
equipped with ZSU-23 mobile radar-controlled anti-aircraft artillery.
The SAM-6/ZSU-23 combination proved deadly. No less than six Phantoms
and thirty A-4 Skyhawks were lost in this single day. Very few of
their pilots manage to escape by parachute. At one time, the Israelis
were losing three out of every five aircraft they were sending over
Golan. These losses were clearly unsupportable, and Chief of Staff
Elazer was forced to temporarily abandon air strikes over Golan in
mid-afternoon.
The SA-6 was an unpleasant surprise to the Israelis. Israeli
electronic countermeasures had been designed to counter the earlier
SA-2 and SA-3 radar-guided missiles that had been encountered by the
Americans in Vietnam, but these techniques were useless against the
SA-6. Earlier Soviet SAMs had used command guidance throughout the
entire flight of the missile, but the SA-6 homed in on CW energy
reflected from the illuminated aircraft for the final approach to the
target. The Straight Flush radar that guided the SA-6 operated over a
much wider bandwidth than did the earlier Soviet radars, and used
D-band for illumination and G, H, and I/J-bands for initial
acquisition and initial launch guidance. The Straight Flush codename
is an apparent reference to the five frequencies used by the system.
In the semi-active homing mode, the SA-6's homing head and
rearward-facing reference antenna receive CW command signals in the
I-band. Beacon signals from the missile are in G and H band. The SA-6
apparently also had an alternative infrared-homing system, but I am
not sure if it was actually used.
The early part of the SA-6's flight was guided by radar, but the
Straight Flush radar operated over a much wider bandwidth than that of
the earlier Soviet missiles. The radar ranged over three separate
frequencies during search, acquisition, tracking, and guidance. Before
the war began, not enough was known about these frequencies or about
the ability of the missile to switch between frequencies while in
flight to throw off jamming transmissions. The ALR-36 radar warning
receiver was of little use in picking up these radar signals, since
these emissions were outside the band in which the ALR-36 was designed
to operate. Consequently, Israeli aircraft found it very difficult to
detect a SA-6 launch, and even more difficult to jam the missile while
in flight."
Did you read the quote where it said "October 7th was a resounding
defeat and the IAF avoided confronting the Syrian SAMs again."
The simple truth that the SA-6 scared Israeli pilots during the Yom
Kippur War like nothing has scared them before or since.
There's no shame in the Israeli Air Force deciding not to take on the
SA-6, it was in fact the smart thing to do.
The Israeli Air Force kicked the Syrian and Egyptian Airforce's butts
in the Yom Kippur War, but the SA-6 kicked the Israeli Airforce's Butt
in the Yom Kippur War.
They took out only enough to open Damascus up for the
air attack on the building all the militiary leadership of Syria were at.
They then brought down that building that killed every high ranking Officer
and all the real experience of how to adjust to conditions during a war.
Read some more on the descission making during that war of the Israeli
Command. Here is some simple facts on that.
1) Egypt was the primary enemy, and had to be stopped first and formost.
2) Until the War with Egypt was won or in total Israeli Control only a
holding action would be fought with Syria. They would do all they could to
keep Syrian Forces from over-running the Golan and to keep the large
airforce of Syria from attacking Israel Proper.
3) The SAMs were known about and on the Sinai they were the largest threat
as the IAF would be most active over that airspace. In Syria until the
Egyptian threat was elimanated to the West, was not a large concern. They
new the exact posistions of the Syrian Batteries. They knew it would be
costly to take each out and decided to only open a single coredor at the
time to be able to hit targets of Command Value in Damascus Proper. They
took out which meant that the overlap capability for defending Damascus was
no longer there on one route.
4) The Egyptians had the Newest SAM batteries that were usually not let out
of Russia. They were also manned by Soviet Technitians not Egyptian. The
IAF did take heavy casualites on thier first run in with them, but came up
with better tactics, Same used by the USA in Vietnam by the A6-Intruders.
A plane would electronicallly make itself the most important target and as
soon as targeting radar painted them a special missile was fired that locked
on to the battery. If the missile got off anyway the plane did a series of
manouvers many times taking the SAM (SA-7) back to an Egyptian target and by
flying low enough and then lifting in an agagy-4 climb at the last moment
the SAM hit what the plane had passed over. They also started using flares
and attaching baffles to the engines to hide the heat from the exahaust.
Later they were found to have refined it when they took otu SA-9 sites in
the Becka Valley only loosing a few drones.
It may be of little importance but Israel was going to be on full alert that
day. The US "sold them a bill of goods" saying that the Egyptians and
Syrians were not going to attack and the SA-7s were mock ups. So Israels
only real mistake was to take the word of the Liars in Washington DC and
Langley West Va.
Here's another example, I've read on several different military sites
that there were a dozen or more Pakistani Air Force Pilots who went
over to arab countries during the 6 Day War and the Yom Kippur War to
see how well they could do against the Isreli Air Force since they had
already racked up great kill ratios against the Indians.
They wanted to see "how good they really were" as it were against a
great air force like the Israelis.
They claim that these Pakistanis shot down at least 10 Israeli air
craft in the 6 day war and at least 1 Israeli aircraft in the Yom
That would mean they are the only ones that shot down Israeli Aircraft in
the 6 day war. LOL.
Kippur war without the Israeli Air Force even shooting down 1 of these
Pakistani pilots.
It's NOT just the Pakistanis who claim this, even this Indian Air
Force historian guy who made this Indian Air Force website claims
that.
SO then they claim since the IAF only lists 11 planes lost, one in a bad
landing BTW, that all the planes shot down was by Packestani Pilots. Have
The Israelis claim that Israel lost 10 planes during the 6 day war,
I'm sure the arabs claim something else.
The truth is probably somewhere in between.
I wouldn't say it's written in stone that Israel lost 1o planes during
the 6 day war, it could just as easily have been 15 or 20.
some more that I can laugh at. BTW I was in that War, and a relative of
mine was a flight section leader and was one of those planes hit but ejected
back over Israeli Held positions. He was injured but to good to be kept out
so he ended the time in the main Command and Communcations Center. I repeat
*only* 10 IAF Combat Planes were lost to Enemy fire and one of those pilots
was hit from the ground, not the air on a napalm run against Egyptian Tanks
that were part of an Armored Column. I guess that was a Packistani Pilot as
well.
In the Yom Kippur war, a little bit more believable except what front was he
fighting on? Syrian perhaps in that one engagement, after that there were
no more air to air fights the Syrian Planes that survived just stood down
totally. So unless he was part of that then I doubt it as well.
Here's a quote from the Indian site that may clear things up for you.
These are all "CONFIRMED KILLS" according to the Indian Air Force guy.
http://jaganpvs.tripod.com/pakpilots.htm#azam
"Saiful Azam is a not heard of much in aircombat. Azam has the unique
distinction of having kills against airforces of two different
countries. as a young flying officer during the 65 Conflict, Saiful
Azam managed to shoot down an IAF Gnat on Sept 18th, a rarity as such
the Gnat was seldom lost in Aircombat. his victim Fg Off V Mayadev
ejected to become a POW.
Azam participated two years later in the Arab Israeli conflict of June
1967. deputed to the Royal Jordanian Air Force, flying Hunters, the
RJAF Hunters were flown out to the Iraqi Airbase of H-3 in an attempt
to put them out of range of Israeli Air Force. It was here he
accomplished a unique feat, flying in a Hawker Hunter as a No.2 His
formation intercepted an Israeli formation of Four Vautours and Two
Mirage IIIs. One of the Mirage IIIs was flown by Capt. Gideon Dror.
Dror shot down Azam's Wingman, but himself fell to Azam's Guns. Dror
ejected to be taken POW. Moments later, Azam intercepted the
formation of four Vantour Bombers and bought down one of them flown by
Capt Golan, who ejected. . Azam had earlier bought down a Super
Mystere the previous day over Jordan. Azam , being a Bengali did not
fly in the 71 conflict.
In the final reckoning Azam ties up with Alam in terms of kills, but
his tally has a range of kills including the enviable credit of a Mach
2 Mirage III Fighter."
http://www.scramble.nl/pk.htm
Here's a quote from the New Zealand site about the 6 day war.
"The Six-Day War between Israel and a number of Arab countries in
1967.
During this conflict the PAF sent personnel to Egypt, Jordan and Syria
to support the Arabs in their battle against the Israelis. PAF pilots
managed to shoot down ten Israeli aircraft, including Mirages,
Mystères and Vautours, without losses on their own side. The PAF
pilots operated with Egyptian, Jordanese and Iraqi combat aircraft."
Here's a quote from the New Zealand site about the Yom Kippur War.
"Yom Kippur War, October 1973
During this war 16 PAF pilots volunteered to leave for the Middle East
in order to support Egypt and Syria but by the time they arrived Egypt
had already agreed on a cease-fire. Syria remained in a state of war
against Israel so the PAF pilots became instructors there and formed
the A-flight of 67 Squadron at Dumayr AB. Later on PAF pilot Flt. Lt.
Sattar Alvi was honoured by the Syrian government."
If he was on the Egyptian front and said he shot down a IAF Combat Jet, then
what day of the war did he do it. The Egyptians used their airforce only 2
days out of that war. The first day to support their ground assault and the
next to last day of the war when the SA-7s got taken out of the picture and
Israelis were buring the dead Soviets in unmarked graves so not to cause
WWWIII over them having combattants in the war. Nixon would have let loose
SAC which he had up the entire war to prevent that from being done. Had
Israelis put on a huge show and tell and not held that secret till about 2
years ago, Nixon may have sent some of the bombers or missiles in and bye
bye world. IDF simply took the IDs of those Soviets killed in the taking
out of the SA-7s and then simply buried them right by the reckage of the
once command center for the battery. The IDF had the Egptian Army trapped
and the Syrians on the run, their airforce in ruins in both those nations.
Again it is not just numbers it is the results. Do you have any ideas of
how many American B17 crews died in that bobming campaign, but the mission
was accomplished while the Egyptian and Syrians Missions were not the
Israeli Missions all ended with the final defeats of both enemies on the
field. Had not the US Stepped in and told Israel to let supplies into the
trapped Egyptain Forces they would all have died with out a shot fired in
another two days. Nothing stood between them and Ciaro and that could have
meant Israeli Troops and guns hitting that city and cutting all escape off
and putting a gun to Saddam's head and demanding Unconditional Surrender.
Israeli Tanks the next day were shelling the outskirts of Damascus. IDF
Airborn had taken all the roads leading to any escape for them. The plans
accoridng to the Dyan Memoirs was to start dismantiling Damscus moving in
for the kill there and to take Ciaro and let the Egyptian Army trapped with
no drinking water left to die of thirst. That was the mission and they
accomplished it for all intent and purposes. As to Egyptian Pilot losses
they IAF shot down killing Saddat's own brother with his entire flight that
last day they flew. Again the ratios went skyrocketting since the SAMs were
no longer in action.
It is the final result that counts not the numbers unless the numbers
aproach 100 percent. In every war Israel started with fewer planes and
pilots then their enemy, yet in the end they always come out on top. Read
some more real history by those that fought there and learn.
Pakestani Claims only say the Syrians and Egyptians had no kills at all.
LOL. And how did they get thier planes there without the US seeing it and
documenting it. LOL again. Just more Mulsim and Indian (they also lie
about Israel 1000s of times) lies.
Indians lie about Israel infavor of Pakistanis?
That's about the funniest things I've ever heard.
It's true that back 50 or 60 years ago the liberal Indian Hindus like
Gandhi suppored the Palestinians and Gandhi even opposed to the right
to create Israel.
That really doesn't matter now though since it's the 21st century.
India is Israel's 2nd BEST ally.
Indian Hindus are the MOST pro Israel people on earth after Americans.
It's pretty far fetched to say that an Indian Hindu who's an Indian
Air Force historian or something would make up stuff in favor of
Pakistan and against Israel.
Look at this Indian guy's website (
http://jaganpvs.tripod.com/ ).
It should be obvious that he's a die hard Indian Air Force fan, and
he's probably a fan and friend of Israel as well.
http://jaganpvs.tripod.com/pakpilots.htm
Here's the homepage of this Indian site.
http://jaganpvs.tripod.com/
This website from New Zealand claims that Pakistani pilots shot down
10 Israeli aircraft in the 6 day war, and at least 1 Israeli aircraft
in the Yom Kippur War.
http://www.scramble.nl/pk.htm
Here's the homepage of this site from New Zealand.
http://www.scramble.nl/
I also did do a google search to find out what kind of kill ratios
Soviet Pilots had against the Israelis when Soviet pilots flew for
Arab Air Forces, but I didn't find anything.
BTW, as even if Israeli pilots are the best in the world, they still
can't be in the same league as the Americans or Europeans because of
the number of and the quality of equipment that the Europeans and
Americans have.
I'd even have to put the Spanish Air Force above the Israeli Air Force
when the Spanish get all their Eurofighter Typhoons(they have already
got their first batch of Eurofighter Typhoons I understand).
No matter how good an Israeli pilot in an F-15I or F-16I would be,
he/she just CAN'T compete with an American Pilot in an F-22 Raptor or
a European pilot in a Eurofighter Typhoon.
The Israelis just don't have stuff even close to as good as the Meteor
BVR air to air missile for example.
Most of Western Europe will have these missiles on their fighter
planes soon.
--
MattA
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Matt's Hep-C Story web pages are back at a home. No more drop down
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--
MattA
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