On Friday, July 18, 2014 1:12:13 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, 18 July 2014 07:06:43 UTC-7, Steve Koerner wrote:

Speaking for myself as a 15m pilot, I really do not want the definition of 15m ruined with handicapping. And the idea posed here about having a handicap adjust to the weather is extra extra icky. 15m numbers have not been fantastic but it's still the strongest class and the numbers are good enough for sure. It doesn't need to be messed with please.







Yes, collocate with Standard is fine. That creates a good situation for Standard guys that they can know for sure that they will have a contest to fly. If they get 10, they have a Standard Nationals; if not, they can fly in 15m. No handicap.



Steve - your suggestion requires that if classes are combined then Std cannot possibly be competitive except in the weakest average weather. Its a not in anyway aligned with pilot skill comparison (the point of handicaps)with gliders that are clearly not the same - even if they are 'close'. Please refer to my post on Hobbs 2013 experience.



I'm still not sure why handicapping necessarily needs to *ruin* anything. We went limited range handicapping in Standard and it didnt change the racing experience at all - it was just too little too late to quickly bring in folks that had already self selected out of competition.



Handicapping model hasnt changed in decades and we now have data analysis tools not dreamed of when Carl Herold first started putting handicaps together - handicapping has evolved into a dirty word in some classes but no-one has actually thought about improving the handicapping to the point where it is no longer the Satan, the AntiChrist and the root of all Uncertainty in final pilot comparison. Thats why I'll be working on the therma-capping idea and running trials on past results to check it makes sense or not.



Yet another option for the Std situation may be to allow 15m to fly Std with negative flap locked out and a 9lb wingload limit for all. I cant see it happening myself until 15m also falls apart and no one wants to think about that it seems.



2T

Well if I had any dreams about being competitive in 18m class, I'm sure I would need to actually go buy a glider with 18m span since 18m is a solid class and nobody in 18m class will have one bit of a care that my little 15m glider isn't quite competitive. They'll still let me fly, of course, but certainly not with any handicap factor.

It's that same relationship between 15m and standard. I don't much care that your glider is not quite competitive (if you say it's not). 15m is still a solid class so we don't need you bad enough to mess with the good thing we have going, I'm sorry to say. Handicapping is absolutely not what I want in my class.

I hope standard class can survive for awhile. I also hope that 15m class can stay strong. It's predictable, though, that both will fade eventually. When our classes fade, there's a great place for our gliders in sports/modern/club. That's where handicapping must stay.