----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul J. Adam"
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 11:52 AM
Subject: Best dogfight gun?


In message , Chad Irby
writes
In article ,
"Paul J. Adam" wrote:
Going slow and turning with an A-10 is about as smart as "turning with
a
Zero" used to be in 1942.

Unfortunately, the A-10 doesn't have many ways to prevent an adversary
using energy tactics, and can't do more than dodge and pray in that
fight.

Actually, the Hog does, if it knows what direction the other guy is
coming from.

That's an extremely large "if", given the extensive air-to-air sensor
suite fitted to the A-10...

Well, using AWACS and mutual support tactics, the A-10 pilots are going to
have an idea where to pick up the tally. Once that happens, it isn't the
best 'suite' that is going to win the fight, it's the best BFM to get to the
WEZ.


Turn into the oncoming fighter, and open fire from a mile or so further
out...

Are you keeping your ordnance for this turn? How long does it take to
get the nose pointed at the target while still having time to get that
shot off? (driving your required detection range). How much airspeed do
you have left at the end of it, which has a serious effect on your
ability to escape the wingman? And what happens when you discover the
attacking aircraft was firing a missile, rather than making a gun pass?

It all depends upon the situation. Hopefully the A-10 pilot(s) pick up the
tally at least 3 or 4 miles out near 3 or 9 o'clock, coming out of a good
RMD. Then they only have slightly more than 90 degrees to get the nose to
bear. Even with all the ordnance still on the jet, at the most a six to
seven second turn in the A-10 not including reaction lag time. Again,
depending on lots of factors, they may get nose-on in time to hose off a
sidewinder and open up with the gun around or slightly inside 9,000' (no
peacetime TRs to worry about). Most likely it will be a beak-to-beak pass
with the A-10s not getting a shot off, which they will try to drive to a
one-circle if the idiot(s) hang around. If bad guy decides to go vertical,
the engaged A-10 may go with him energy dependant and hose off a sidewinder
to give him sometime to think about, even with an opening Vc. Smart A-10
driver won't continue uphill, instead try to keep tally and get a circle of
hogs going.

If the A-10s get any ordnance off prior to the merge, it might coax the bad
guy into thinking twice about keeping his fangs out. Since the primary A-10
role is to kill them by the bushels instead of one at a time, most A-10
pilots won't hit the emer jett until they get wrapped up with the guy for
180 degrees of turn. Again, situation dependent, lots of 'what ifs' that
you can't know about until you are there.

Or, the possibility exists that he shows up at 6 o'clock and the first
indication is the wingman calls a break turn and chaff and flares. Get the
jet moving, start puking out stuff, and at the earliest opportunity hit the
emer jett. Do best defensive BFM, try to get nuetral or in the best case
reverse or have the wingman schwack him (if the wingman isn't already tied
up with the bad guy's #2).

In answer to your airspeed question, the A-10 will be headed downhill the
entire time to maintain corner velocity, and if he's coming out of RMD, he
should know what's coming so he'll probably be carrying extra knots for the
initial turn at the merge.

The smart A-10 pilot will be flaring and chaffing early and often in
anticipation of that missile shot you are talking about...and keeping the
jet moving.

If this analysis was accurate, the F-15 and F-22 would be screaming for
27mm or 30mm guns...

I think we both know that the possibility of air-to-air gun fighting today
is highly unlikely. Lessons learned from the past would behoove us to have
them on our jets, or in the case of the A-10, use them to really screw up
the bad guys on the ground.

The initial question asked was how multi-barrel and single barrel cannons
stack up, and the subject is best dogfight guns. Just because the A-10 is
built around the GAU-8 doesn't mean it is any less of an effective dogfight
gun, especially with the high rates of turn the A-10 is capable of, small
bullet dispersion over the tac effective range, and relatively high rate of
fire.

ATTACK!