Mitty wrote
If your instructor won't train you in IMC, you need a different
instructor.

Of course. Don't let people tell you otherwise.

On Sep 10, 1:33 pm, Bob Moore wrote:
Mitty, During my 20,000+ hours of flying, I have been a Navy
squadron level Instrument Instructor (P-2V/P-3B), an airline
Flight/Instrument Instructor for 5 years (B-707/B-727) and have
been an FAA Flight Instructor, Instrument-Airplane for the past
37 years. I don't train in IMC!

First, I don't know what kind of instructor you were at the airlines,
but every airline instructor I know (and I know several) who actually
teaches in the airplane (and not just in the sim) teaches in IMC. The
ones who teach in the sim use it to simulate IMC. How you got by
teaching VMC only in the 707/727 I don't know, but it's not done that
way anymore.

Second, and we've gone through this before, you are conveniently
ignoring the fact that while the military instrument rating is all
VMC, it is also a limited instrument rating. It does not allow the
newly minted military instrument pilot to self-dispatch into weather
the way the civilian instrument rating does. Self-dispatch authority
comes only with the (advanced, command - the terms vary with time and
service branch) instrument rating - and it requires IMC experience.

So I really hope you don't teach GA instrument pilots - because the GA
instrument pilot really needs to get supervised IMC experience before
the rating, as there will be no support system for him to get it
after, as there is in the military and airlines.

The Instructor needs to be in charge of the training flight,
not ATC.

The capable instrument instructor has no problem staying in charge of
the flight, VFR or IFR. Working with ATC to get what you need while
working within the system is part of the job. If you can't do that,
you have either an ego problem or a skill problem.

The first phase of instrument training should consist ONLY of
basic control of the airplane by reference to instruments, don't
even turn on the NAV radios until a student can proficiently
fly the patterns contained in the FAA Instrument Flying Handbook,
H-8083-15. The older edition has even better patterns.

Different people take different amounts of time to learn the control
skills required for pattern A and pattern B. Some people can do it in
under five hours. Some of those who have played flight sim can do it
in less than one. In my experience, the people who need the most time
to learn to control the plane solely by reference to instruments are
the natural stick-and-rudder guys. Maybe that's why the military
calls for 60 (or is it 70) hours for the instrument. I felt 40 was
way more than I needed, and had to burn off time with a safety pilot.

The next phase consists of VOR radial interception and tracking.
I don't want to even see an approach chart (IAP)until the student
has mastered these plus holding.

Once again - some are quick, some are slow. And in any case, holding
in IMC is VERY easy to get if you know how to work with ATC. Done it
many times so my students could hold in actual. Who knows when
they'll get to do it again...

Do you hold an FAA Flight Instructor, Instrument-Airplane certificate
and rating to qualify you to make the quoted statement?

Since when is a piece of plastic a prerequisite for an informed
opinion?

In any case - I do hold a CFI - airplane single and multi, instrument
airplane, and glider. Also an ATP. And I agree with him. So does
every other instructor with an ATP that I know. You're the lone
exception.

Michael