On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 21:56:47 +0000, Brent Rehmel wrote:

No. You cannot buy a new C 150 for anywhere near that price. It is
ridiculous to compare a 25 year old aircraft with one that is brand new. If

You can find C150's all the time for 15K - 18K. And they'll be airworthy
to boot. It's not ridiculous to compare the two. What major design
difference is there now between a metal Zenith vs a 25 year old design?
Look closely, you'll find many older designs that are better than the
Zenith, and some of the others you mentioned. Not one of them us cutting
edge, all they are is just new paint and metal. The Tiger is more
revolutionary than the designs you mentioned, as is the Mooney and many
others. You must keep in mind that old does not mean bad, I'd rather fly
in a T210 than the Zenith in IFR conditions, it's a better plane in every
single respect you can list. You also listed planes using tube and
fabric, that is very old technology, and yet you belive those are superior
to the newer laminar flow wings found on some of the 25 year old certified
aircraft. Again, newer does not mean better. We have not come full
circle, just branched off is all.

you actually add up mainenance costs and avionics upgrade cost, your cheap
150 costs more than a Zodiac, not less.

Not hardly, my maintenance is very low. My A&P allows me to assist in
things if I choose to, and since the plane is built already I don't need
to pay them to install stuff. But in any event, unless you build the
plane, you can't work on it without somebody else willing to sign off on
things, ala the conditional inspection. I don't know if the new planes
will be the same in terms of working on them as current ones are. I don't
know where you get your figures from, but you can buy an IFR certified
C150 for $25K pretty easy, why would I want to upgrade that? None of your
planes used a Garmin 430 or better, or the newer UPS moving map stuff.
Don't give me the avionics upgrade hassle, I could imagine every plane out
there needing it. I've seen people buy a plane with a 430 in the panel
and want to upgrade it. There's always something better no matter what
you buy.

BTW, was the factory plane you flew in an HD, HDS, or XL model? My guess is

It was the 601XL and had the Lycoming o-235 in it. It most definitly did
not meet the sport pilot requirements at the time.

surprise me a bit if a stock 601 HD with 80 HP would not be faster than a C
150 with 100 HP. A stock 601 HD would easily meet all reqirements for Light

If you don't believe me, then look at the matronics list and you'll notice
lots of people who've complained that their planes come no where near the
specs Zenith claimed for them.

but wouldn't be close to the stall requirement. The XL is a heavier version,
designed for 100 HP, with more wing area and designed for Light Sport.

They claim that now, but I doubt it since the plane existed before the
proposal, at least I didn't hear of this NPRM until well after the 601xl
debut and shortly after that their adds appeared touting the facts you
quote now. In fact, the planes specs changed after that as well as the
engine. I liked the o-235, very nice combination in my opinion.

I will tell you this, the Zenith 601XL I flew was more stable than my 150,
10 mph faster in cruise, and probably 2400 fpm faster in climb. I have to
guess there since the prototype didn't have a VSI in it, so it was seat of
the pants stuff. It's stall was benign, easier than the Cessna 150,
similar I think to a C172 in characteristics. The stick was pretty easy
to get used to, and the only reason I'm not building one now is because at
the time they didn't have the manuals for it in print, and in the past
Zenith has abandoned a design that was started but never finished. The
Gemini for example. They also dropped the aerobatic plane they had, so I
was reluctant to plop down money. There was no clock in the plane, I
didn't have a watch, so I had no way to do accurate timings for VSI.

I am now gearing up to build the Wag Aero Sportsman 2+2 because my mission
profile does not work well with a 2 seater, and I wanted something more
capable than my 150, closer to a 172. But I didn't want a certified
aircraft. My only requirement is that I fly behind a certified AC engine,
no Rotax's or auto conversions. I don't trust them. I don't like Rotax
in a plane, and I figure if the Katana dropped them in favor of something
else then that proves my point. I don't like their TBO, which is not
mandatory for part 91 flying.

I've always heard it's great to fly an experimental, but to fly an
experimental with an experimental engine is much more work and more
dangerous.

So for me, it's Continental or Lycoming, or none at all.

Now if you want to compare the XL to the HD, or HDS, it goes like this.
The HDS is the most stable due to the higher wing loading, then HD, then
XL. All are fine flying aircraft.

I live but 20 minutes by air from Mexico and so I've been there many times
and am very familar with their planes. The 4 place design of theirs is
nice, but it's cramped in terms of where to put the feet. I like it
however, but have never flown it.