In article ,
(Michael Petukhov) writes:
(Peter Stickney) wrote in message ...
In article ,
nt (Krztalizer) writes:

That's unlikely. Chines and Korean pilots surely also contributed some.
Also those 1309 mentioned was those whose wreckage was found in NK
control area. At least only those were allowed to officially report
to Moscow. Many US planes surely crashed in SK control area and
in sea water. There should be quite a bit of technical crashes as well.
So all together around 3000 planes I guess, 3000.

Yonder flies a dead duck.

The Soviet Pilots, and their immediate commanders in Korea seem, in
those interviews that aren't being paid for in Vodka, to be giving
numbers that are pretty much in line with U.S. clains & losses, modulo
a bit of overclaiming on both sides.
Although what was being reported to the Staff back home may very well
be another matter -

maybe in USAF it can be another matter. But in Stalin times
one must be crazy to lie in official reports. And what's for.
VVS was doing pretty well against USAF in Koreia according
to any standards.

The "Soviet Vo;unteers" were actually contesting U.S. Air Superiority
of a small segment of the border area between North Korea and
Manchuria. And, yes, the more experienced units fought hard, and
achieved much better success than the novices in the DPRK or PRC.
But they never achieved their goal of preventing the U.N. forces from
attacking any target that they desired to strike.
ANd the kill claims recorded at teh Staff Level in Moscow are higher
than those reported from Manchuria, and the claims released by the
Soviet Government are higher still. So _somebody_ within the Soviet
Hierarchy was definitely doing some Creative Arithmetic.

The biggest threat to the U.S.A.F maintaining Air Superiority was
logistics. It took a while for the U.S.A.F. to be properly supporting
the Sabres stationed in Korea - This, however, was a function of
internal policies - (Louis B. Johnson, Truman's Secretary of Defence,
was, quite frankly, an idiot, and only Robert S. Macnamara ranks up
with him in terms of being able to screw up a Free Lunch.) and
conflicting industrial priorities, especially with reference to the
demand for J47 jet engines, which were not only used in Sabres, but
also in the B-47 and as auxilliary powerplants for the B-36.


One of the processes allowed in confirming kills
on the Soviet side was "Battle Calculus" - basically the idea that if
you hosed off a full load of ammo at somebody, you _must_ have gotten
enough hits to knock him down.

Hm...

Oh, there's no doubt.

An official excuse for wishful
thinking. (Sort of like the old duck-hunting joke - two hunters in a
blind in a cold, clammy marsh. Suddenly a pair of ducks fly over.
The first hunter bangs off a pair of shots, and his bird falls. The
second fires off his, to no visible effect. Second hunter turns to
the first, asn says, "You;ve just witnessed a miracle - that's a dead
duck you see flying away".

I have to agree the numbers given are highly inaccurate.
There were much more US planes shot down and crashed outside
of NK control zone which were unaccounted for. But i have to
note that our own losses are pretty accurate and we did lost
335 Migs and 120 pilots. So the ration is many:1 in soviet
advantage.

Yonder flies a dead duck.
--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster