"SeeAndAvoid" wrote in message
hlink.net...
What the hell, I'll jump in. Just doing a quick search on "full
approach",
[snipped]

Full approach, which isnt exactly what the pilot said, he said "would like
to shoot the full VOR/DME 22 into Rockwood". This may be splitting hairs,
but he didnt say it (which I'm not convinced there is any such
phraseology),
but even if he did, that was a REQUEST, which is not always which is
given by the controller.

The trainee and I did discuss where the "full approach" began. Since we
rarely work aircraft approaching RKW from the east, it was a legitimate
question in my mind. We had literally about 20 seconds to huddle with the
plate during the OJTI. We had our hands full with higher priority ATC stuff
and airplanes were calling right and left. This aircraft had GPS, so I said
I though the full approach in this case begins at the IAF (MINES) and we
could clear him to MINES via GPS-direct. The trainee thought that the
"full" approach began at HCH Vor, and involved flying out on the 060R to get
to MINES, then doing a course reversal. He asked if he should clear the guy
to HCH to start the full approach. HCH was 30 miles west of the position
from which the approach request was made and would have involved a serious
detour.

Now I'm wondering what I could have done with this UH-60 if it had been a /A
instead of a /G. We don't clear /A's direct to intersections. Where does
the "full approach" begin for a non-RNAV on this procedure. I can't vector
to final at this location.


I dont think it's so simple that the pilot is expected to do a PT.
On procedure turns, the AIM, as earlier stated does indeed say....
5-4-9. Procedure Turn

a. A procedure turn is the maneuver prescribed when it is necessary to
perform a course reversal to establish the aircraft inbound on an
intermediate or final approach course. The procedure turn or hold in lieu
of
procedure turn is a required maneuver.

First off, as we are reminded quite often, the AIM is not regulatory.
Secondly,
if you read that verbatim, it says "when it is necessary". Giving someone
a vector, or this clearance where it's within 30 degrees or so, basically
a
straight-in to the IAF, I do not consider the PT "necessary". You can't
tell
me that a course reversal on damn near a straight-in could ever be
mistaken
in court as "necessary" for the establishment of this intermediate part of
the approach, UNLESS the airplane is way too high, which in this case is
not applicable as the altitude was good and in accordance with the IAP.

The direction from which the aircraft was approaching MINES likely
contributed to my misunderstanding. He was approaching MINES on a track
that intercepted the FAC at 30 degrees or less. The VOR/DME Rwy22 is also
the GPS Rwy 22. I got it in my head that he didn't need a PT. What the
heck, on many of the newer GPS approaches, aircraft make 90 degree turns
between waypoints to get to the FAF. I had the wrong site picture here.


[snipped]


This is the one the FAA, if it so chose, could go after the pilot. They
would
argue that the non-published route (direct MINES) was in essense a
RADAR VECTOR. This particular clearance can only be done with
radar service provided. This is not an arc, a victor airway, or a
published
transition. That's why it was correctly included in the clearance that
the
pilot should cross MINES at 5,000', which is above the MIA (Minimum
IFR Altitude) and keeps him in radar contact. The clearance also included
(which is also phraseology I'm not sure exists) "cross MINES at 5000
INBOUND". That "inbound" I'm not so sure of, and could cause confusion
with the pilot. It could mean hit MINES and continue inbound, no PT, or
it could mean once he's inbound, cross MINES at 5,000'.

I believe that the phraseology "inbound" slipped in there because we have an
approach to another airport where this is required phraseology. He had
issued this other clearance earier in the session. My Dev only has about 60
hours on this position, working on his first two R-sides.


There was confusion on both sides here, the way I see it. The pilot made
his REQUEST, figures he got what he asked for. The controller heard
the request, used questionable phraseology to get what he wanted to get
across, and the end result was the pilot doing something other than the
controller expected. "Report PT inbound" wouldve probably made it
real clear, and if the pilot didnt intend on doing a PT, that would have
raised a warning flag to him. I guess you can ask if he's going to do
the course reversal, and if I hear "full approach", I'd at the very least
protect the airspace either way, or just ask the pilot.

Yeah, we were protecting the airspace anyway. I didn't really have my radio
to use, so I didn't ask like I normally would.


You ask any controller, or Airspace & Procedures specialist this
situation, you'll get lots of different interpretations. They'll all
probably agree that the communication was hazy (you didnt
"break the chain" as they love to shove down our throats), and
the pilot may have been a little guilty of hearing what he wanted
to hear - although we dont have the exact tapes. A REQUEST
means nothing without a CLEARANCE. I'd be interested in
hearing the pilots readback, I'm willing to bet that it wasn't
exactly standard phraseology either.

The phraseology that I wrote for the ATC side of things is 100% accurate for
the event, but not 100% correct by the book. The Army pilot was
transmitting on UHF, so even if we could pull voice tapes, we'd likely not
fully understand him. Our UHF receivers are old, worn out and often
unservicable. His initial request was stepped on by an air carrier on VHF
in our other combined sector asking about the freaking ride. (Jeeze is
*that* is getting OLD!!!). His subsequent request was hard to understand,
but he did emphasize a request for the *full* approach.

I'd love to find an Airspace and Procedures guy anywhere in my Region who
had a clue to begin with. Down here in ZTL, we have a total disconnect
between the guys maintaining procedures for the facility, the guys
publishing new procedures up at the Regional level (Terps guys) and the men
and women keying the mic at the sector. For example, GPS approaches are
dropping into my airspace like landmines. We don't get briefed on the
changes anymore. Heck they aren't even "read and initial" items these days,
likely because the 530 guy doesn't even know about them. They even change
things like a missed approach procedure and the only way you can spot it is
by reading the paper IAP plate before issuing the clearance. They plop new
approaches in the airspace and you discover them when the pilot requests the
procedure and you scramble for the plate. We are so short staffed right now
at ZTL, we don't even do crew/team training anymore. I haven't had a Team
Training in three years. Everyone is months behind on CBI's. Our facility
Airspace office doesn't even pretend to try anymore. Yall are probably the
same way out there- it's getting pretty bad all over the Enroute community.

Thanks for the insight.


PS:email me sometime Chip, your assumption of my email
address was correct.

Wilco.

Chip, ZTL