At 19:12 28 October 2006, Bumper wrote:
'Gary Evans' wrote in message
...


A couple of DG800 advantages that bumper overlooked.

1) An engine that doesn't cost $17000 to replace.
2) An engine that can be worked on with out having
to remove it from the fuselage. While this may not
seem like something you will ever have to do you'll
want to keep a couple of big friends around for spark
plugs changes. I believe there were at least three
engines pulled for one problem or another at this
years
ASA Parowan camp. They also had their own cart to
haul
the engines around for repairs but I'm not sure if
thats a standard 26 option.
3) A superior engine management system (DEI) with
manual
back up.

IMO the engine related issues sum up the big difference
between these two ships as performance both in glide
and under power are way similar. The 26 has a smoother
engine and the 800 has one, which is easier and cheaper
to maintain. They are both state of the art ships
and
you won't be sorry for buying either.
DG has done a pretty fair comparison between the 26/800/Ventus
2cM that can be viewed here -
http://tinyurl.com/yz4shs



Gary,



I agree that performance wise they're essentially equal.
On your other
points:



1) The 17K figure may seem a lot, however, the need
to completely replace
one of these engines is quite rare. Replacing the Wankel's
major engine
parts costs around $8K Euro. Those few cases were
this was necessary were
most likely due to oil starvation and a Chernobyl type
melt down. You do
need to keep oil in the tank and pay attention to engine
temperatures.



Otherwise the Wankel, besides having small size which
allows a narrow
fuselage, has excellent power density and vibration
free smoothness. The
Wankel is also remarkably reliable and trouble free.
The lack of vibration
means that stuff doesn't crack, break or fall off the
motor and things
nearby - - a major positive attribute as compared to
most 2-strokes.





I heard that two of the 26E engines pulled at Parowan
where to replace
broken drive belts. This is an unusual occurrence,
as the Wankel, with it's
multiple smaller power pulses per revolution, is gentle
to the drive train
as compared to a 2-stroke. There was talk of a change
in formulation used in
manufacturing the Gates Poly-Chain drive belts. AFAIK,
the reason for this
breakage hasn't been 100% resolved/confirmed. I do
know that some owners
have 150 hours and more with no drive belt issues.
For the whole 26E fleet,
I'm aware of only the Parowan failures and one prior
failure caused by a
bearing failure in one of the guide pulleys. Belt failures
have occurred on
the 2-stroke powered ships as well, a backfire on start
up will do the deed.



2) Yup, on my 26E the engine must be pulled to change
plugs. There is a
factory mod that provides an access hole to allow plug
service without
pulling the engine. It's retrofitable to my ship, but
since I've never had
to service the plugs, I don't plan on adding this mod.
Besides, the engine
package is easy enough to remove and can be done solo
in about an hour
(maybe half that with good help). Remove 3 bolts, 3
wiring cable plugs, a
couple of Bowden cable connections (throttle and prop
stop) and a fuel line.
A 'cherry picker' engine hoist is needed if removing
the engine solo. I've
only done this once in the 4 years and 23 engine hours
I've had the ship,
but plan on doing it for the next annual just to look
at things.



3) When shopping, I considered DG's DEI engine control
a plus, but after
using the simple ILEC engine control, as used on the
26E and many other
self-launch gliders, I'm not so sure. To put away the
prop on the 26E:



a- turn off ignition

b- when prop stops, engage manual prop-stop lever (this
swings a rubber
stopper into the prop arc) and nose over slightly to
windmill prop into stop
as viewed in rear view mirror.

c- push pylon switch down until prop just disappears
from view in mirror
(this is the cool down position), at thermalling speeds,
the additional drag
caused by the partially extended prop/radiator is minimal
and still allows
reasonable climb performance.

d- In my ship, the cool down period takes 3 - 4 minutes.
After observing a 2
C drop in engine coolant temp, push switch to retract
prop fully.



Simple, reliable, almost no maintenance required .
. . even a cave man
could do it. A DEI? Kind of like the automatic parking
option on the new
Lexus - - why bother? (g)



I agree the most prominent mechanical difference between
these two ships is
the power train. I do not agree that the DG's 2-stroke
engine is easier and
cheaper to maintain. Given, replacing a 2-stroke engine
is much less
expensive than replacing the Wankel. However, this
needs to be tempered by
the fact that the Wankel will hardly need replacement
if operated with
reasonable care and its on-going maintenance is usually
less expensive.



After talking to Tom and Billy Stowers (High Country
Soaring, and who have
worked on all manner of these ships), my impression
is that the 2-stroke
maintenance issues they experience is an order of magnitude
greater with
2-strokes than on the Wankel powered ships. This is
also borne out by a
check of the relevant AD's. The ASH26E has but two
airworthiness directives
(rotor cooling fan and muffler), both early-on teething
problems that were
resolved years ago.



The many more subtle differences between the two ships
are perhaps more
subjective. I talked with Larry Mansberger about the
'beneath the skin'
differences between DG and Schleicher as I was not
in a position to take a
chain saw and see for myself. Keeping in mind that
this was several years
ago and the wing sections I saw were made prior to
current DG factory
ownership, the innards of the Schleicher wing looked
to be assembled with
the same care and attention to detail as the outer
parts the customer
normally sees - - not so inside the DG wing.



Many of the DG's at Minden have gel-coat surface cracks
on the wings,
commonly around the spoiler boxes. I haven't seen this
on Schleichers,
though some earlier 26E's did show the wing spar profile
after several
years - - later versions, my 2002 model included, have
not done this - so
far. Subjectively, the 26E cockpit finish is nicer
and ergonomics, even for
taller pilots, is excellent. The DG's pigeon-toed
rudder pedals, when I was
trying it on, gave me foot cramps.



I've asked several DG800 series owners, on the Minden
ramp, why they chose
the DG-800 series over the ASH26E. At the time, purchase
cost was
essentially the same for either ship and probably is
still close. By a large
margin the answer was availability, the delivery wait
for the 26E then being
two years, more than double that for the DG at the
time. For one DG owner,
the 800's two piece wing was a deciding factor (the
26E's one piece wing
means the trailer must be longer, at about 35').



All that said, owners of both these ships seem happy
with their decisions,
and that's what really counts. My strong bias in favor
of the ASH26E may
well be indicative of a underlying personality flaw
(g), I have little
tolerance for things mechanical that could have, or
should have, been done
better.





bumper




While the major 26 engine parts may cost $8k Euro a
replacement engine can cost $17k US as one unhappy
owner found out the hard way. I sure hope it isn't
a common problem, because that would bankrupt a lot
of people. I understand that a belt break which stops
the water pump results in almost instant over heating
which can fry the engine resulting in one of those
big bills but as long as you constantly watch the temp
gauge and keep one hand on the off switch that shouldn't
be a big issue. When two belts break at the same meet
however I would no longer call it an unusual occurrence.

Interesting that DG's engine management system which
automated the process beyond the 26 would be viewed
as unnecessary like the parking option on the new
Lexus. I guess that means that all development should
have just stopped with the 26. Hmmm!

Quote bumper ' My strong bias in favor of the ASH26E
may well be indicative of a underlying personality
flaw (g), I have little tolerance for things mechanical
that could have, or should have, been done better.'

I know for a fact that you have this flaw so it must
have been especially painful when you realized there
were so many areas for improvement in your 26. I'm
sure Kemp was exaggerating when he said you've made
1000 changes but exactly how many changes have you
made?


Ps. As I said before IMO both of these ships are good
choices but both have advantages and disadvantages.
Were that not the case one of these two manufactures
would have been out of business by now. You can measure
how well DG is doing by the sales volume and innovations.
I assume Schleicher is doing as well. You pay your
money and take your choice. I do suggest interested
buyers research beyond owners opinions as they (we)
tend to be a tad biased as you may have noticed.