FAA PPL night flight requirement - does it have to be DUAL?

This might be nitpicky, but nothing in the AIM is a
"requirement". Technically the AIM is not the law,
the FAR is.
Nonetheless, the AIM is incredibly important - I know.
It seems subtle, doesn't it?

On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 13:11:00 +0100, Peter
wrote:


Reading FAR/AIM 2004 it isn't entirely clear to me because different
sections refer to day and night cross country, and I don't think the
description of a day cross country applies to the night flight; the
distances are 150nm and 100nm respectively.

I have night flights with an instructor which exceed 100 miles in
total distance, and I have a solo night flight which exceeds 100nm
which was done between two airports whose direct line spacing is
119nm.

I suspect that the information on the basis of which I did the last
flight was bogus and I don't meet the FAA PPL requirement.

Can anyone suggest the FAR/AIM 2004 sections which could clarify this?

You want the FAR, 61.109(a), paragraphs 2 and 2(i) - "Except as
provided in 61.110 of this part, 3 hours of night flight training in a
single-engine airplane that includes (i) One cross country flight of
over 100 nautical miles total distance; and (ii) 10 takeoffs and 10
landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the
traffic pattern) at an airport."

You meet the night cross country requirement with either flight listed
above. There's no requirement for a solo night cross country of any
distance in the regs. If you've done 10 night takeoffs and landings
you meet the requirements for that part of the reg.

The long solo cross-country (150nm) is 61.109(a)(5)(ii) - 150nm, 3
stops, one segment of which needs to be between 2 airports 50NM apart.
If you happened to do this at night, great - the reg doesn't say it
has to be done during the day, but the solo flight mentioned above
doesn't count unless it was over 150NM (the 119NM apart meets the 50NM
distance, but not the total flight distance and 3 landings).

Luck,
P

"Peter" wrote in message
...
You meet the night cross country requirement with either flight listed
above. There's no requirement for a solo night cross country of any
distance in the regs. If you've done 10 night takeoffs and landings
you meet the requirements for that part of the reg.

My reading of the first paragraph above is that *both* (i) and (ii)
are required, and the word "night" does apply to both (i) and (ii).

Yes, it does. I assume that Peter Clark was not implying that the XC flight
required by 61.109(2)(i) is not required to be done at night; rather, I read
his statement to (correctly) mean that there's no *SOLO* night XC
requirement. The only night XC requirement specifically requires an
instructor to be on board.

I have 11 takeoffs after Civil Twilight, and 21 landings after Civil
Twilight, so (ii) should be satisfied.

Yup.

I now have (i) also but after advice from some people who should know
I did it solo.

There was no requirement to do so. The flight you did solo doesn't do
anything to help you meet any of 61.109. However, from your original post,
it appears that you already had the necessary dual flight required by
61.109(2)(i), so you're fine in that respect.

It is possible that the words "night flight TRAINING" (my emphasis)
refer to dual flying because in practice that is what the student will
have to do; at that stage he won't be legal to do it solo.

The student is legal to do it solo if his instructor signs him off to do so.
I hope that you had the necessary instructor endorsement before you made
your 119NM (239NM? you never said whether it was one-way or round-trip)
flight.

As far as what "night flight training" means, it means exactly what it would
seem to mean to someone NOT trying to read between the lines. It's a night
flight during which training is taking place; that is, an instructor is on
board and giving training.

It means that because the FAA wants an instructor on board, not because the
pilot would not otherwise be qualified to make the flight (since, after all,
it's possible the student pilot would be qualified to make the flight
without the instructor).

In my case, I have some 400 hours, lots of IFR/IMC time (on a UK
license), and the UK night rating, so can fly at night solo or even
IFR in IMC.

In a UK-registered aircraft and/or in the UK, of course. AFAIK, the UK
license doesn't make you legal in the US, flying a US-registered aircraft.
It's not clear from any of your posts which certificate (the UK license or
the US student pilot certificate) you're using as the basis for legality for
the various flights you're making, or where those flights were made.

I have heard of people who did their 100nm night flight solo.

There are no such people. The regulation clearly requires an instructor to
be on board in order to meet the requirements given.

Perhaps you have, instead, heard of people who did *A* 100NM night flight
solo? With the appropriate instructor endorsement (or other qualifying
circumstances), that would be permissible, though would not help the pilot
achieve the requirements given in 61.109(2).

Are you saying that Americans are able to get an FAA PPL without doing
10 *night* takeoffs and landings and without flying 100nm fully at
night?

Anyone, American or not, can get an FAA Private Pilot Certificate without
doing those. However, they will have a "no night flying" restriction on
their certificate.

The rest of us had to do the required night training, as clearly described
in the regulations.

Pete

On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 19:39:48 +0100, Peter
wrote:


Peter Clark wrote

You want the FAR, 61.109(a), paragraphs 2 and 2(i) - "Except as
provided in 61.110 of this part, 3 hours of night flight training in a
single-engine airplane that includes (i) One cross country flight of
over 100 nautical miles total distance; and (ii) 10 takeoffs and 10
landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the
traffic pattern) at an airport."

You meet the night cross country requirement with either flight listed
above. There's no requirement for a solo night cross country of any
distance in the regs. If you've done 10 night takeoffs and landings
you meet the requirements for that part of the reg.

My reading of the first paragraph above is that *both* (i) and (ii)
are required, and the word "night" does apply to both (i) and (ii).

I have 11 takeoffs after Civil Twilight, and 21 landings after Civil
Twilight, so (ii) should be satisfied.

I now have (i) also but after advice from some people who should know
I did it solo.

It is possible that the words "night flight TRAINING" (my emphasis)
refer to dual flying because in practice that is what the student will
have to do; at that stage he won't be legal to do it solo.

Unless properly endorsed for night solo, correct, it won't be done
solo. I'm confused on your statement that "people who should know"
told you to do the night cross country solo to meet a US requirement
that doesn't call for it to be solo. Generally you get 3+ hours of
dual given at night time which includes the solo.

In my case, I have some 400 hours, lots of IFR/IMC time (on a UK
license), and the UK night rating, so can fly at night solo or even
IFR in IMC.

I have heard of people who did their 100nm night flight solo.

Are you saying that Americans are able to get an FAA PPL without doing
10 *night* takeoffs and landings and without flying 100nm fully at
night?

Um, I think I said:

You meet the night cross country requirement with either flight listed
above. There's no requirement for a solo night cross country of any
distance in the regs. If you've done 10 night takeoffs and landings
you meet the requirements for that part of the reg.

meaning that the reg doesn't say the cross country has to be solo, and
because of that the dual cross country of over 100NM you mentioned in
the original post meets the requirements of 61.109(2)(a)(i). Anything
else is gravy. Then I continued to say that if you have the 10 to/l
after night you meet 61.109(2)(a)(ii). Perhaps I should have said
"you meet the night cross country requirement with either of the
flights you said you logged above" to be more clear as to what I was
referring to when I said "flight listed above"?

And technically, yes, if you're in Alaska there's a special exemption
in 61.110 from having to do the night work, but you get a "daylight
only" PPL which you can go back later and add night to once you get
the hours done. It would have been useful when I was trying to do the
night work back in July and night started at 9:30 or later, but I
digress Everyone else has to have night work.

On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 13:58:27 -0700, "Peter Duniho"
wrote:

"Peter" wrote in message
.. .
You meet the night cross country requirement with either flight listed
above. There's no requirement for a solo night cross country of any
distance in the regs. If you've done 10 night takeoffs and landings
you meet the requirements for that part of the reg.

My reading of the first paragraph above is that *both* (i) and (ii)
are required, and the word "night" does apply to both (i) and (ii).

Yes, it does. I assume that Peter Clark was not implying that the XC flight
required by 61.109(2)(i) is not required to be done at night; rather, I read
his statement to (correctly) mean that there's no *SOLO* night XC
requirement. The only night XC requirement specifically requires an
instructor to be on board.

Yep, I stand corrected in that the 3 hours night training "that
includes" would mandate the cross country be part of that 3 hours and
thus logged as dual received wouldn't it. So the extra solo night
cross country wouldn't be useful for anything under this part.

In a UK-registered aircraft and/or in the UK, of course. AFAIK, the UK
license doesn't make you legal in the US, flying a US-registered aircraft.
It's not clear from any of your posts which certificate (the UK license or
the US student pilot certificate) you're using as the basis for legality for
the various flights you're making, or where those flights were made.

If it is a standard UK certificate, wouldn't his easier path be
getting a US PPL based on foreign cert, a-la 61.75?

Anyone, American or not, can get an FAA Private Pilot Certificate without
doing those. However, they will have a "no night flying" restriction on
their certificate.

Actually, I believe you might be mistaken on this one - the only night
exemption is I can see is 61.110 which appears to apply to Alaska
only.

"Peter Clark" wrote in message
...
[...]
If it is a standard UK certificate, wouldn't his easier path be
getting a US PPL based on foreign cert, a-la 61.75?

You'd think. But each pilot has their own circumstance. I'll take it as
granted that if a pilot feels it's easier to go through the "long form"
certification process than to convert a UK certificate, then it is.

Or perhaps in spite of all that aeronautical experience, he doesn't actually
hold a convertable certificate. I don't know.

Actually, I believe you might be mistaken on this one - the only night
exemption is I can see is 61.110 which appears to apply to Alaska
only.

Hmmm...interesting. Either my memory is too fuzzy, or this is yet another
example of a subtle change that occurred in 1997 (if I even have the year
correct), and which I've failed to note. They appear to have kept in the
general (non-Alaska) exception for gyroplanes, powered parachutes, and
weight-shift-control aircraft.

I could swear that, at least at some point in my past, they permitted
general "no night flying" certificates, even for pilots outside of Alaska.

Of course, the main point is that to be allowed to fly at night, all holders
of an FAA certificate obtained through the usual process must meet the night
training requirements.

Pete

Hmmm...interesting. Either my memory is too fuzzy, or this is yet
another
example of a subtle change that occurred in 1997 (if I even have the year
correct), and which I've failed to note. They appear to have kept in the
general (non-Alaska) exception for gyroplanes, powered parachutes, and
weight-shift-control aircraft.

I could swear that, at least at some point in my past, they permitted
general "no night flying" certificates, even for pilots outside of Alaska.

You're correct... but they closed that. Now, you can only get the
exception living in Alaska, but I _think_ you have to go back and do the
night stuff within six months or something like that. I had to do the
night training (which led to a last-minute hop the night before my
checkride to get the rest of the landings in) but it was all done with
an instructor (the XC is a story for a different time...). I think they
closed the exemption because too many people were trying to cheat the
restriction and were having accidents (read: got themselves killed) so
they figured it was better to make everyone do it even if they aren't
going to use it again. Now, we can debate the intelligence of VFR XC's
at night in single-engined airplanes for a long time to come...
personally, I don't fly more than a few miles from my home area (where I
can reconginze the landscape and airports, and can orient just by seeing
Atlanta on the horizon) at night, and even then I won't go without a
working, lighted GPS.

"Peter" wrote in message
news

Reading FAR/AIM 2004 it isn't entirely clear to me because different
sections refer to day and night cross country, and I don't think the
description of a day cross country applies to the night flight; the
distances are 150nm and 100nm respectively.

I have night flights with an instructor which exceed 100 miles in
total distance, and I have a solo night flight which exceeds 100nm
which was done between two airports whose direct line spacing is
119nm.

I suspect that the information on the basis of which I did the last
flight was bogus and I don't meet the FAA PPL requirement.

Can anyone suggest the FAR/AIM 2004 sections which could clarify this?

The solo night flight counts only if your instructor has conducted the
required training for student solo night flight required by FAR 61.87(o) and
specifically endorsed your logbook for student solo night flight; otherwise
the flight was illegal and cannot be used for meeting any aeronautical
experience requirements. FAR 61.109(a)(2)(i) says that your night training
must include a night cross country of 100 miles total distance. Since this
is training, not solo, your instructor must go with you.

You must also have a solo cross country flight of 150 miles total distance,
with three full stop landings and one segment between stops at least 50
miles long, per FAR 61.109(a)(5)(ii). This flight could be conducted at
night if your instructor has signed you off for solo night flight, but few
instructors will allow that and most students do the flight during the day.

"Peter" wrote in message
...
[...]
Incidentally, assuming that I have to re-do the flight with an
instructor, is it ok (for the purpose of the "night x/c training" in
61.109) to fly to an airport 58 miles away, land, stop on the runway,
and without getting out of the aircraft takeoff again and go back? I
can't see a requirement in FAR/AIM 2004 for landing, taxiing to the
apron, getting out, etc.

There is none. You may deal with the particulars of the flight however you
see fit. You can fly there, land and come back (you don't even need to make
a full-stop landing, unless you want that for the purpose of meeting the
other areas of night currency/experience). You can fly there, land, park,
grab a bite from the vending machine. You can fly there, land, park, sleep
overnight, sightsee all day, fly back at night. Whatever you want to do, as
long as you meet the "100NM at night" requirement.

Pete

"Peter" wrote in message
...
OK, I omitted to mention what I mention in another reply: this was
done in the UK, where my UK license and G-reg aircraft entitle me to
fly at night (I have had the JAA night training) and also IFR. So the
night flight was legal.

It was legal for you to make. That doesn't mean it meets the requirements
of the regulation.

From what you say above, if I am allowed to do it solo (which I am)

No, you are not. As has been stated several times in this thread, "flight
training" means that you are required to have an instructor with you.

then the night flight should count.

No, it shouldn't and doesn't. Not the solo night flight.

Precisely this is the feedback I
have received from a few people who are now doing their FAA CFII
training.

They are mistaken.

FAR 61.109(a)(2)(i) says that your night training
must include a night cross country of 100 miles total distance. Since this
is training, not solo, your instructor must go with you.

But is that true if the pilot is already legal to fly it solo?

Yes, it is still true, even if you are legal to fly it solo.

Pete