Pricing a '74 Archer

I'm trying to decide what is a fair price for this aircraft. I looked at
the asking price of 74 Archers in Trade-a-Plane and saw prices ranging from
the high 40's to the high 50's. I used the TAP estimator and came up with
about 52K. This plane is in good condition in and out, has older avionics,
an autopilot, com/nav1is an old bendix unit that seems to barely work,
com/nav2 is a newer King unit that seems to work well, it has an ADF, mode
C xponder, 4 place intercom, a King DME, EGT, g meter, and the rest of the
stuff you would expect. It has marker beacons but they don't seem to work.
It has about 3100 hours TTAF and 1000 hrs since engine overhaul (service
limits).
The aircraft shows a bit of damage history a long time ago when it was
landed on the nose gear and some of the gear parts where replaced and a
motor mount piece straightened. Cylinder 1 has been oscillating in the 70
to 74 range ever since the overhaul. The other 3 Cylinders seem to run
around 76 to 78. Looks like a couple of reocurring AD's are coming due
soon, AD 96 12 07 (something about impulse couplings) and AD 98 02 08
(crankshaft corrosion check?). At 10,000 feet with I think only a little
wind the DME was indication about 118 knots flying towards the station and
about 114 in the opposite direction.
The owner had supposedly checked with a local salesman and was given the
impression it would sell for 70K. I think the salesman was perhaps a bit
misleading.

Anyone familiar with what is involved with these AD's? Does the performance
sound reasonable for a 74 Archer? Would a stable but lower reading on
cylinder 1 normally be a warning flag?
Does 52K sound like a reasonable price?

--
Mike

In article , "Mike Noel"
wrote:

I'm trying to decide what is a fair price for this aircraft. I looked at
the asking price of 74 Archers in Trade-a-Plane and saw prices ranging
from
the high 40's to the high 50's. I used the TAP estimator and came up
with
about 52K.

The TAP estimator always seems high to me. It would estimate
my 140 at about $55,000.


This plane is in good condition in and out, has older
avionics,
an autopilot, com/nav1is an old bendix unit that seems to barely work,
com/nav2 is a newer King unit that seems to work well, it has an ADF,
mode
C xponder, 4 place intercom, a King DME, EGT, g meter, and the rest of
the
stuff you would expect. It has marker beacons but they don't seem to
work.


sounds like the avionics are crap.



It has about 3100 hours TTAF and 1000 hrs since engine overhaul (service
limits).

service limit overhaul? blech.


The aircraft shows a bit of damage history a long time ago when it was
landed on the nose gear and some of the gear parts where replaced and a
motor mount piece straightened.

old damage history is not too much of an issue. However, I'd still
get my A&P to look it over real good.


Cylinder 1 has been oscillating in the
70
to 74 range ever since the overhaul. The other 3 Cylinders seem to run
around 76 to 78. Looks like a couple of reocurring AD's are coming due
soon, AD 96 12 07 (something about impulse couplings) and AD 98 02 08
(crankshaft corrosion check?).

It sure looks to me that AD 98-02-08 is overdue.



At 10,000 feet with I think only a little
wind the DME was indication about 118 knots flying towards the station
and
about 114 in the opposite direction.

sloooooow.


The owner had supposedly checked with a local salesman and was given the
impression it would sell for 70K.

if it had working avionics

if it had all ADs complied with

if the engine overhaul wasn't to service limits (cheap bugger).
What else did the owner cheap out on?


I think the salesman was perhaps a bit
misleading.

yep.


Does the
performance
sound reasonable for a 74 Archer?

no.

Would a stable but lower reading on
cylinder 1 normally be a warning flag?

not to me.

Does 52K sound like a reasonable price?

too high because I'm suspicious of all the stuff that barely works,
slow performance, service limit overhaul, lack of ad compliance.

make sure you get a GOOD prepurchase from an A&P you trust.

Good luck

--
Bob Noel

Call your insurance carrier, they will have the wholesale price from
the book. Compare that with the TAP estimator and go from there. And
yes, the estimator always seems to be high, as does the pricing guide
AOPA has. Buy with your head, not your heart. That way you'll not
overpay.

On Sun, 03 Aug 2003 11:03:34 GMT, Bob Noel
wrote:

In article , "Mike Noel"
wrote:

I'm trying to decide what is a fair price for this aircraft. I looked at
the asking price of 74 Archers in Trade-a-Plane and saw prices ranging
from
the high 40's to the high 50's. I used the TAP estimator and came up
with
about 52K.

The TAP estimator always seems high to me. It would estimate
my 140 at about $55,000.


This plane is in good condition in and out, has older
avionics,
an autopilot, com/nav1is an old bendix unit that seems to barely work,
com/nav2 is a newer King unit that seems to work well, it has an ADF,
mode
C xponder, 4 place intercom, a King DME, EGT, g meter, and the rest of
the
stuff you would expect. It has marker beacons but they don't seem to
work.


sounds like the avionics are crap.



It has about 3100 hours TTAF and 1000 hrs since engine overhaul (service
limits).

service limit overhaul? blech.


The aircraft shows a bit of damage history a long time ago when it was
landed on the nose gear and some of the gear parts where replaced and a
motor mount piece straightened.

old damage history is not too much of an issue. However, I'd still
get my A&P to look it over real good.


Cylinder 1 has been oscillating in the
70
to 74 range ever since the overhaul. The other 3 Cylinders seem to run
around 76 to 78. Looks like a couple of reocurring AD's are coming due
soon, AD 96 12 07 (something about impulse couplings) and AD 98 02 08
(crankshaft corrosion check?).

It sure looks to me that AD 98-02-08 is overdue.



At 10,000 feet with I think only a little
wind the DME was indication about 118 knots flying towards the station
and
about 114 in the opposite direction.

sloooooow.


The owner had supposedly checked with a local salesman and was given the
impression it would sell for 70K.

if it had working avionics

if it had all ADs complied with

if the engine overhaul wasn't to service limits (cheap bugger).
What else did the owner cheap out on?


I think the salesman was perhaps a bit
misleading.

yep.


Does the
performance
sound reasonable for a 74 Archer?

no.

Would a stable but lower reading on
cylinder 1 normally be a warning flag?

not to me.

Does 52K sound like a reasonable price?

too high because I'm suspicious of all the stuff that barely works,
slow performance, service limit overhaul, lack of ad compliance.

make sure you get a GOOD prepurchase from an A&P you trust.

Good luck

(Nathan Young) wrote in message om...
"Mike Noel" wrote in message ...
(crankshaft corrosion check?). At 10,000 feet with I think only a little
wind the DME was indication about 118 knots flying towards the station and
about 114 in the opposite direction.

This is slow for an Archer, but 10,000 feet means nothing without
knowing density altitude and RPM. A typical Archer should do about
150mph (130kts) wide open throttle at 8000ft DA.

A few other things to check:
-Check that all the avionics work.
-Does the audio panel work, can you ident from each radio.
-Track a VOR
-Capture a localizer/glideslope and fly the approach in VFR conditions

Also check that the to/from flags and glideslope indicator flags work
correctly.

-Nathan

I knew someone would point that out! ;-)

On Sun, 3 Aug 2003 08:56:18 -0400, "Mike Granby"
wrote:

"Justin Case" wrote:

Buy with your head, not your heart.

If we followed that advice, we'd never own airplanes in the first place!

On Sun, 3 Aug 2003 13:06:33 -0700, "Mike Noel"
wrote:

I'm trying to figure out why the plane seems to cruise slowly. The prop is
a Sensenich 76EM8 $5(S?)-0-60 HUV series 12679K (according to owner over the
phone). Could this be a climb prop instead of a normal cruise prop?

Could be the wings!!!

Justin Case wrote:
: On Sun, 3 Aug 2003 13:06:33 -0700, "Mike Noel"
: wrote:

:I'm trying to figure out why the plane seems to cruise slowly. The prop is
:a Sensenich 76EM8 $5(S?)-0-60 HUV series 12679K (according to owner over the
:phone). Could this be a climb prop instead of a normal cruise prop?

: Could be the wings!!!

The prop is the standard prop for an Archer/Cherokee 180. 76EMM8S-0-60.
Speed:
Could be the airspeed indicator, pitot, or static systems, too, but I don't
think so. 120 Knots seems about right, and checking with the DME is
probably not accurate to more than a couple knots. I guess you got something
like 116 or 117 knots from your 2-way average, which is pretty close.

I flight plan for 120 knots in my Cherokee 180, and I expect to get it at
any reasonable altitude - say less than 8000 feet D.A. I have no speed
mods of any sort, except for wheel pants. The book indicates I should get 143
MPH True Airspeed at 75%, 7500 feet D.A., which is 119 knots.

A friend of mine flies a '75 Archer, and her plane goes almost exactly
the same speed as mine. Supposedly the newer Archers ('82+?) have better
wheel fairings and are a couple knots faster.

Summary: I think you're doing OK as far as speed goes.
The Archer is a very simple to maintain plane, the AD's are not too bad, and
for $7000 you can have a GNS-430 installed at any reputable shop.
Do make sure to get a pre-buy inspection to check for the one-time AD's that
came out years ago, and do check the Lycoming 400-hour valve wobble
inspection.

PS, I think my 1968 Cherokee 180, with 9.5 paint/8.5 interior, 800 SMOH
(new limits), modern King IFR, DME, Piper Autopilot, and an IFR GPS is
worth between $55K and $60K.
The market is down, there are lots of planes available, so don't worry if
this one is not available at your price point!
--
Aaron Coolidge (N9376J)

I had a short round trip that averaged 121 the other night. For pre-flight
planning I use 115 to be on the safe side, it seems to work out about right.

Jim

"Sydney Hoeltzli" wrote in message
...
Nathan Young wrote:

This is slow for an Archer, but 10,000 feet means nothing without
knowing density altitude and RPM. A typical Archer should do about
150mph (130kts) wide open throttle at 8000ft DA.

Gosh, I guess I must just never have flown a "typical" Archer,
even though I've flown some which had plenty of speed mods.

The "book" claims ~125 kts at 75% power. 8000 ft, full
throttle is about 75% power for us, so I assume about the
same for normally-aspirated Archer. I think the "book"
is a little optimistic. Not too bad.

We used to see an honest 120 kts. If you're light (1-2
people, low fuel) you'll go a bit faster.

Maybe other Archer/PA28-180 owners will comment.

Cheers,
Sydney

Jim wrote:
I had a short round trip that averaged 121 the other night. For pre-flight
planning I use 115 to be on the safe side, it seems to work out about right.

Hi Jim,

Yep, just for grins I guestimated airspeed from some logged flights
where I know the RT distance. ~120 kts seems entirely consistant --
few knots faster if it was just two of us and fuel to the tabs,
few knots slower if it was max gross. One of the planes we flew
had some speed mods (wingtips, wheel pants, gap seals) and it did
seem to make a difference of a knot or two.

BTW Chuck Slusarczyk (the CGS Hawk guy) opined that different planes
of the same make and model commonly have a few knots difference in
TAS even if they're w/in tolerance on the wing installation and properly
rigged, just from the sum of subtle differences here and there.

Cheers,
Sydney

Aaron Coolidge wrote in message ...
Justin Case wrote:
: On Sun, 3 Aug 2003 13:06:33 -0700, "Mike Noel"
: wrote:

:I'm trying to figure out why the plane seems to cruise slowly. The prop is
:a Sensenich 76EM8 $5(S?)-0-60 HUV series 12679K (according to owner over the
:phone). Could this be a climb prop instead of a normal cruise prop?

: Could be the wings!!!

The prop is the standard prop for an Archer/Cherokee 180. 76EMM8S-0-60.

Yep. Senenich's website indicates that Cherokee 180/early Archers use
the 60 inch pitch. Archer IIs (starting in '78) use a 62 inch, so
that's why the late model Archers are faster.

-Nathan