MSL vs. AGL (Again)

The MSL/AGL issue has come before the Caesar Creek Soaring Club Board
once again. Not only has the Club been thrown into turmoil again, this
time it has specifically affected our instructors and how to most
effectively teach our students. I am curious if there are other Clubs
or organizations that teach using AGL.
Rolf Hegele
Member of the Board

Greater Houston Soaring Association teaches MSL and have ever since I
started taking lessons 25 years ago.
Fred Blair - CFIG
On Jul 14, 9:20*pm, N11rdbird wrote:
The MSL/AGL issue has come before the Caesar Creek Soaring Club Board
once again. Not only has the Club been thrown into turmoil again, this
time it has specifically affected our instructors and how to most
effectively teach our students. I am curious if there are other Clubs
or organizations that teach using AGL.
Rolf Hegele
Member of the Board

On Jul 14, 7:20*pm, N11rdbird wrote:
The MSL/AGL issue has come before the Caesar Creek Soaring Club Board
once again. Not only has the Club been thrown into turmoil again, this
time it has specifically affected our instructors and how to most
effectively teach our students. I am curious if there are other Clubs
or organizations that teach using AGL.
Rolf Hegele
Member of the Board

I don't think you have provided enough information to effectively
answer the question. However, I think I know where you are going.

TEACH MSL, to teach any thing else is a disservice to your students.

Most "eastern" clubs teach AGL. Setting the altimeter to zero altitude
and not to field MSL elevation. Powered airplane students are never
taught to do this, but to set the altimeter setting or field elevation
as per their respective manuals.

If you fly under the floor of class b airspace, how do you know when
to stop the climb to not violate the class b? Your field is at 1000
MSL, but you set "0". there is class b above you at 6000 MSL, but when
your altimeter says 5000 you are already violating the class b. Some
may argue to do the math and know that 5K on the altimeter is the
limit. BULL CRAP,set the altimeter correctly the first time and it
will read correctly with no math required.

And if your newly minted pilot ever comes out west, he'll never be
able to set to "0" or AGL, the altimeter does not "unwind" far enough.

If your newly minted pilot ever contacts any ATC facility for
transition around controlled airspace, the ATC will issue an altimeter
setting which he is expected to set and the report his altitude
accordingly. But now he is set to MSL and not AGL and he's never delt
with MSL before.

Your pilot is flying with others who are taught MSL, but his altimeter
is set to AGL. When they report locations and altitudes they are
expecting MSL and who is going to miss report or miss interpret? The
pilot set to AGL!!
Teach them right the first time and forget it!!

On Jul 14, 7:54*pm, T wrote:
On Jul 14, 7:20*pm, N11rdbird wrote:

The MSL/AGL issue has come before the Caesar Creek Soaring Club Board
once again. Not only has the Club been thrown into turmoil again, this
time it has specifically affected our instructors and how to most
effectively teach our students. I am curious if there are other Clubs
or organizations that teach using AGL.
Rolf Hegele
Member of the Board

I don't think you have provided enough information to effectively
answer the question. However, I think I know where you are going.

TEACH MSL, to teach any thing else is a disservice to your students.

Most "eastern" clubs teach AGL. Setting the altimeter to zero altitude
and not to field MSL elevation. Powered airplane students are never
taught to do this, but to set the altimeter setting or field elevation
as per their respective manuals.

If you fly under the floor of class b airspace, how do you know when
to stop the climb to not violate the class b? Your field is at 1000
MSL, but you set "0". there is class b above you at 6000 MSL, but when
your altimeter says 5000 you are already violating the class b. Some
may argue to do the math and know that 5K on the altimeter is the
limit. BULL CRAP,set the altimeter correctly the first time and it
will read correctly with no math required.

And if your newly minted pilot ever comes out west, he'll never be
able to set to "0" or AGL, the altimeter does not "unwind" far enough.

If your newly minted pilot ever contacts any ATC facility for
transition around controlled airspace, the ATC will issue an altimeter
setting which he is expected to set and the report his altitude
accordingly. But now he is set to MSL and not AGL and he's never delt
with MSL before.

Your pilot is flying with others who are taught MSL, but his altimeter
is set to AGL. When they report locations and altitudes they are
expecting MSL and who is going to miss report or miss interpret? The
pilot set to AGL!!
Teach them right the first time and forget it!!

Sorry, I forgot to sign my post.

T, CFIG

Rolf,

i'd be interested to know what your AGL pilots think of FAR 91.121, it
applies to aircraft not airplanes. do they argue that since they are
not "maintaining" an altitude or flight level in their glider that it
doesn't apply to them? I don't buy that and i doubt the FAA would
either.

On 7/14/2011 7:20 PM, N11rdbird wrote:
The MSL/AGL issue has come before the Caesar Creek Soaring Club Board
once again. Not only has the Club been thrown into turmoil again, this
time it has specifically affected our instructors and how to most
effectively teach our students. I am curious if there are other Clubs
or organizations that teach using AGL.
Rolf Hegele
Member of the Board

This question suggest some members want to train pilots to only fly
locally and only at this club. Is that the intent of the training the
club provides? If the club wants the pilots to be able to fly
cross-country or from other airports, then teach them MSL from Day One,
and banish AGL settings.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

On Jul 14, 10:20*pm, N11rdbird wrote:
The MSL/AGL issue has come before the Caesar Creek Soaring Club Board
once again. Not only has the Club been thrown into turmoil again, this
time it has specifically affected our instructors and how to most
effectively teach our students. I am curious if there are other Clubs
or organizations that teach using AGL.
Rolf Hegele
Member of the Board

Our club flies out of a county airport with a lot of mixed traffic,
i.e. everything from large biz-jets down to home-built LSAs and
helicopters. We are talking to each other and therefore, the altitude
reporting has to be off the same base - MSL!
Uli Neumann

Why not ask the FAA legal department what their opinion /
interpretation of the rule is?

They have been asked before - numerous times.

Tom

My club switched from AGL to MSL 2 seasons ago. It was a hard
battle. However, we're getting more power traffic in the area, and
they report MSL. There has been some confusion, but we're working on
it.

One compromise that was made is that we set MSL, but created circle
stick-ons that fit around the altimiter to show various AGL heights:
Low tow (1250') and all thousands. The thousands needle points to the
AGL height indicator.

-John

On Thu, 14 Jul 2011 19:20:06 -0700 (PDT), N11rdbird
wrote:

The MSL/AGL issue has come before the Caesar Creek Soaring Club Board
once again. Not only has the Club been thrown into turmoil again, this
time it has specifically affected our instructors and how to most
effectively teach our students. I am curious if there are other Clubs
or organizations that teach using AGL.
Rolf Hegele
Member of the Board

Teaching via AGL reduces confusion in one extremely limited context
and massively increases it everywhere else. It must be based on the
assumption that the students are much dumber than power students.

That said, my former home field, the old Black Forest, elevation 7180
MSL, took the idiocy even further: they taught students to set the
altimeter to 7000 for easy subtraction. You can imagine what it would
be like to fly XC that way...

rj