I Want My Own Bird

I really want to make a good decision on this so, I'm giving myself plenty
of time, two years, to get my ducks lined up. I've want either an Archer or
an Arrow with an IFR package.

I've started looking at and pricing hanger space at selected airports in the
Houston area where it'll be based. DWH prices it at $250 a month. Haven't
had a chance to look anywhere else as yet.

I guess what I'm looking for from the board is a breakdown on how much some
of you are paying for loans, insurance, tie-down and upkeep on planes with
similar packages.

Just some financial facts please. Other than the fun factor and the
knowledge that I'll have my own bird to fly whenever I please, I know the
cost of owning a plane is next to impossible to justify.

But I'm a recent empty nester, my source and income is stable, reliable, and
on the increase. I'm fairly young, late 30's, and feel lthat I've paid my
dues to my kid and now it's time I spoil myself.

In article ,
Yeah_right wrote:
Just some financial facts please.

For about 100 hours/year it will cost about $10,000/yr. You'd have
to buy into a partnership or a twin to significantly move the cost
up or down.

More importantly you have to be ready to spend $1000 with no warning
without flinching too badly. You should be able to absorb a $20,000
cost (like a rebuilt engine) without becoming destitute.

If you move up to a twin turboprop I think you just multiply all those
costs by 20 or so.

--
Ben Jackson

http://www.ben.com/

I'm based at West Houston (IWS) and have a 1968 Cherokee 180
(basically the Archer). Annual runs around $800 (the inspection
anyway), T-Covers go for $175, T-hangars I think are about $250.
Insurance runs me about another $800 or so

IWS is also manned 24/7 so it's really convenient. Very helpful staff
also.

On Thu, 07 Oct 2004 04:50:58 GMT, "Yeah_right"
wrote:

I really want to make a good decision on this so, I'm giving myself plenty
of time, two years, to get my ducks lined up. I've want either an Archer or
an Arrow with an IFR package.

I've started looking at and pricing hanger space at selected airports in the
Houston area where it'll be based. DWH prices it at $250 a month. Haven't
had a chance to look anywhere else as yet.

I guess what I'm looking for from the board is a breakdown on how much some
of you are paying for loans, insurance, tie-down and upkeep on planes with
similar packages.

Just some financial facts please. Other than the fun factor and the
knowledge that I'll have my own bird to fly whenever I please, I know the
cost of owning a plane is next to impossible to justify.

But I'm a recent empty nester, my source and income is stable, reliable, and
on the increase. I'm fairly young, late 30's, and feel lthat I've paid my
dues to my kid and now it's time I spoil myself.

I was in a similar situation (although a few years older than you),
with my kids gone and some time to spend my money on myself for a change.
Bought my Comanche 250 in April and so far I've put a set of tires on it,
replaced the wing root seals and cowl chafe, some SCAT hoses I'm still
troubleshooting an intermittent problem with the NAV radio (actually the
antenna/feedline now). I think you have to have plenty of cash available
to fix whatever goes wrong and not sweat about spending it. Also if you
can do a lot of your own maintenance and minor repairs as I do it will
save you plenty.

My insurance is $1900/yr, hangar is $125/mo and fuel around here (50nm
west of SAV) is $2.75. It would be painful to have to pay $250 - $300
for a hangar because I plan on $150 a month just for incidentals. I have
not regretted doing it at all.. on the other hand I have a fairly simple
lifestyle in other ways and prefer to spend my extra money on the plane
and associated traveling. Just remember you can't take it with you.
I have already explained to my kids that there will be no inheritance
because I plan on spending it all. :^)


Yeah_right wrote:
I really want to make a good decision on this so, I'm giving myself plenty
of time, two years, to get my ducks lined up. I've want either an Archer or
an Arrow with an IFR package.

I've started looking at and pricing hanger space at selected airports in the
Houston area where it'll be based. DWH prices it at $250 a month. Haven't
had a chance to look anywhere else as yet.

I guess what I'm looking for from the board is a breakdown on how much some
of you are paying for loans, insurance, tie-down and upkeep on planes with
similar packages.

Just some financial facts please. Other than the fun factor and the
knowledge that I'll have my own bird to fly whenever I please, I know the
cost of owning a plane is next to impossible to justify.

But I'm a recent empty nester, my source and income is stable, reliable, and
on the increase. I'm fairly young, late 30's, and feel lthat I've paid my
dues to my kid and now it's time I spoil myself.

For about 100 hours/year it will cost about $10,000/yr. You'd have
to buy into a partnership or a twin to significantly move the cost
up or down.

More importantly you have to be ready to spend $1000 with no warning
without flinching too badly. You should be able to absorb a $20,000
cost (like a rebuilt engine) without becoming destitute.

If you move up to a twin turboprop I think you just multiply all those
costs by 20 or so.

About right - my partner and I budgeted 450/mo plus gas/oil each for
an Arrow. That did not provide for an engine reserve and ultimately
turned out to be not quite enough.

My take on it.. 250 is CHEAP for the Houston area. Hooks is in my
opinion an EXCELLENT GA field with a restaurant, tower, daytime fuel
truck, 24 hour fuel pump access and several schools on field for a
decent sized instructor pool.

I am part of a partnership that is joining into an existing hangar lease
crosstown at EFD, and the small hangars are running $400/mo (but these
hold 2-3 small planes). At Clover/Pearland Regional the rent is running
$350 average for T-hangars that vary from all-metal to "metal sheeting
over wood frame" (boat shed quality)

I can't comment on West Houston or Weiser's prices..

That being said.. for a used midtime $65,000 archer with 75% financing
your 10 year note payment will be balpark $575-600 depending on
interest. $250/mo is cheap for hangar, if you can get it at that price.
I have not priced insurance, but count on $20-25/hr based on current
fuel costs ($200/mo for a 100 hr year), Engine reserve cost I have heard
people say $5-10/hr and that is probably an even broader range.. Direct
operating costs of $40 an hour would probably be very conservative (and
comes out to $320/mo for a 100 hr year).

So far, without insurance, you are looking at $1400/mo in rough
calculations. Are you considering sole ownership? A partnership? The
Houston Chronicle always seems to have a partnership or used a/c
available in the classifieds, section 201 I believe, right after the
trucks and before the boats.

I also want to say Woody Leskal, the developer/owner down at West
Houston has a business where he refurbs older commanche 250's and the
like, and sells 1/3rd share for $33,000. If you keep the plane at IWS he
will even offer to manage the plane/partnership for you (im sure for a
fee.. but it takes some of the hassle out of ownership).

Also, Myplane.com is supposedly offering fractional ownership in the
Houston area, but they have not responded to the single internet inquiry
I made of their local rep.

I apologize if this isn't quite what you are looking for (my numbers are
rough and estimated, not from personal experience)... I'm part of an
experimental build that we hope to have airborne by next summer that
will blow the socks off an Archer class aircraft. Building your own
isn't for everyone, but it may give you a lot more plane for your $$, if
its capable of suiting your needs and situation (family supportive, have
the time, etc).

Good luck, and if you to discuss this or anything else regarding Houston
area aviation issues further, you can reach me at doggtyredATyahooDOTcom.

Dave



Yeah_right wrote:

I really want to make a good decision on this so, I'm giving myself plenty
of time, two years, to get my ducks lined up. I've want either an Archer or
an Arrow with an IFR package.

I've started looking at and pricing hanger space at selected airports in the
Houston area where it'll be based. DWH prices it at $250 a month. Haven't
had a chance to look anywhere else as yet.

I guess what I'm looking for from the board is a breakdown on how much some
of you are paying for loans, insurance, tie-down and upkeep on planes with
similar packages.

Just some financial facts please. Other than the fun factor and the
knowledge that I'll have my own bird to fly whenever I please, I know the
cost of owning a plane is next to impossible to justify.

But I'm a recent empty nester, my source and income is stable, reliable, and
on the increase. I'm fairly young, late 30's, and feel lthat I've paid my
dues to my kid and now it's time I spoil myself.

Do yourself a favor, go talk to the new owner at High Tech aviation.

I flew into Hooks after more than a year when I met him. He has done the
hugest 180 on a FBO I have ever seen - from dust bunnies to busy bodies. I
don't know how long it took him, but the place is totally different.

Tell him what you are thinking about doing. He knows a lot about pipers, as
he owns a few. In the meantime, you can rent from him too. His insurance
will be much more, but since you will be nicer to your plane than his
renters, his maintenance costs will be a conservative figure for you. I
assume he gets the planes serviced at the hangar next to him, so you can
find out if that guy is a good AP.

And figure that you will pay much more for fuel when you are not at Hooks.
That place is dirt cheap (besides the resturaunt, that is why I stopped
there).

The posters so far have been about right for budgeting, especially the rainy
day fund.

Two years from now, it could all change.

I was considering a sole ownership, but I have to admit, it would be a
little bit uncomfortable for me to spend $1400 at this particular time. Two
years from now....who knows.

My target range was $800 to $900 dollars, not including what I'd expected to
pay for fuel and oil. Perhaps I should move that target north. It appears
that if I partner with someone, the costs could be cut dramatically. I
don't have a problem partnering with someone if it came down to that. but,
how to you determine a partner's reliability....someone who won't leave you
holding the bag or literally trashing the plane?

I planned on going to West Houston and Weiser this weekend to scout out the
area and get prices on hanger costs. I'll report back any information I
find.

ksmithATnhmccdDOTedu

"Dave S" wrote in message
nk.net...
My take on it.. 250 is CHEAP for the Houston area. Hooks is in my
opinion an EXCELLENT GA field with a restaurant, tower, daytime fuel
truck, 24 hour fuel pump access and several schools on field for a
decent sized instructor pool.

I am part of a partnership that is joining into an existing hangar lease
crosstown at EFD, and the small hangars are running $400/mo (but these
hold 2-3 small planes). At Clover/Pearland Regional the rent is running
$350 average for T-hangars that vary from all-metal to "metal sheeting
over wood frame" (boat shed quality)

I can't comment on West Houston or Weiser's prices..

That being said.. for a used midtime $65,000 archer with 75% financing
your 10 year note payment will be balpark $575-600 depending on
interest. $250/mo is cheap for hangar, if you can get it at that price.
I have not priced insurance, but count on $20-25/hr based on current
fuel costs ($200/mo for a 100 hr year), Engine reserve cost I have heard
people say $5-10/hr and that is probably an even broader range.. Direct
operating costs of $40 an hour would probably be very conservative (and
comes out to $320/mo for a 100 hr year).

So far, without insurance, you are looking at $1400/mo in rough
calculations. Are you considering sole ownership? A partnership? The
Houston Chronicle always seems to have a partnership or used a/c
available in the classifieds, section 201 I believe, right after the
trucks and before the boats.

I also want to say Woody Leskal, the developer/owner down at West
Houston has a business where he refurbs older commanche 250's and the
like, and sells 1/3rd share for $33,000. If you keep the plane at IWS he
will even offer to manage the plane/partnership for you (im sure for a
fee.. but it takes some of the hassle out of ownership).

Also, Myplane.com is supposedly offering fractional ownership in the
Houston area, but they have not responded to the single internet inquiry
I made of their local rep.

I apologize if this isn't quite what you are looking for (my numbers are
rough and estimated, not from personal experience)... I'm part of an
experimental build that we hope to have airborne by next summer that
will blow the socks off an Archer class aircraft. Building your own
isn't for everyone, but it may give you a lot more plane for your $$, if
its capable of suiting your needs and situation (family supportive, have
the time, etc).

Good luck, and if you to discuss this or anything else regarding Houston
area aviation issues further, you can reach me at doggtyredATyahooDOTcom.

Dave



Yeah_right wrote:

I really want to make a good decision on this so, I'm giving myself
plenty
of time, two years, to get my ducks lined up. I've want either an
Archer or
an Arrow with an IFR package.

I've started looking at and pricing hanger space at selected airports in
the
Houston area where it'll be based. DWH prices it at $250 a month.
Haven't
had a chance to look anywhere else as yet.

I guess what I'm looking for from the board is a breakdown on how much
some
of you are paying for loans, insurance, tie-down and upkeep on planes
with
similar packages.

Just some financial facts please. Other than the fun factor and the
knowledge that I'll have my own bird to fly whenever I please, I know
the
cost of owning a plane is next to impossible to justify.

But I'm a recent empty nester, my source and income is stable, reliable,
and
on the increase. I'm fairly young, late 30's, and feel lthat I've paid
my
dues to my kid and now it's time I spoil myself.

Great idea.

Actually, I did my primary training there when it was ran by a lady named
Alice under the banner National Aviation. I think the new owner's name is
Michael. They have a website. It's http://www.nationalaviation.com/ . I
went there for Alice's celebratory retirement party where they fed a bunch
of pilots who patronized the business.

Though a little rough around the edges, it at least seemed to be a bustling
place when I was training there, at least that's what I perceived through
the naive starstruck aviation eyes I had at the time 6 years ago.

They don't know it yet, but they're about to get a lot of money from me in a
big way as I plan on going back there pretty soon to work on my IRF,
commercial, and multi engine tickets. The last time I was there, they had a
Seneca in the hanger my mouth was watering over.


"Dude" wrote in message
...
Do yourself a favor, go talk to the new owner at High Tech aviation.

I flew into Hooks after more than a year when I met him. He has done the
hugest 180 on a FBO I have ever seen - from dust bunnies to busy bodies.
I
don't know how long it took him, but the place is totally different.

Tell him what you are thinking about doing. He knows a lot about pipers,
as
he owns a few. In the meantime, you can rent from him too. His insurance
will be much more, but since you will be nicer to your plane than his
renters, his maintenance costs will be a conservative figure for you. I
assume he gets the planes serviced at the hangar next to him, so you can
find out if that guy is a good AP.

And figure that you will pay much more for fuel when you are not at Hooks.
That place is dirt cheap (besides the resturaunt, that is why I stopped
there).

The posters so far have been about right for budgeting, especially the
rainy
day fund.

Two years from now, it could all change.

On Thu, 07 Oct 2004 04:50:58 GMT, "Yeah_right"
wrote:

I really want to make a good decision on this so, I'm giving myself plenty
of time, two years, to get my ducks lined up. I've want either an Archer or
an Arrow with an IFR package.

I've started looking at and pricing hanger space at selected airports in the
Houston area where it'll be based. DWH prices it at $250 a month. Haven't
had a chance to look anywhere else as yet.

I guess what I'm looking for from the board is a breakdown on how much some
of you are paying for loans, insurance, tie-down and upkeep on planes with
similar packages.

Just some financial facts please. Other than the fun factor and the
knowledge that I'll have my own bird to fly whenever I please, I know the
cost of owning a plane is next to impossible to justify.

But I'm a recent empty nester, my source and income is stable, reliable, and
on the increase. I'm fairly young, late 30's, and feel lthat I've paid my
dues to my kid and now it's time I spoil myself.

An Archer will cost roughly as follows:

$1k/year insurance ($55k hull, $1M liability, $100k/seat)
$3k/year hangar (the $250/month is a great price by the way)
$3k/year annual and misc maintenance (this is a conservative number)
--------------------------------------------------------------
$7k/year fixed costs

Regarding a loan. If you have to finance, try to use a home equity
line to pay for the loan. Most home equities are in the 6.0% range,
and would be tax deductible for an effective cost of 4.0%. This is a
huge advantage over what you will find for conventional aircraft loan
rates, which are probably in the upper 7s or 8s now.

55k financed @ 8% for 20 years = $460/month = $5520/year

Direct hourly costs:
Fuel = 10gph * $3.00/gallon = $30/hr
Oil = $1/hr
-------------------------------
$31/hr

Other hourly costs:
Engine overhaul. An overhauled O-360 will cost close to $20k
installed, with a TBO of 2000 hrs, so this is $10/hr. Even if you do
not save an overhaul resever, your plane will depreciate at roughly
half this value ($5/hr) because of the increased engine time.

There are other costs too. Gyros, radios, paint, interior do not last
forever.

So flying approx 150hrs / year (which is more than most owners).
Hourly costs = 150 * 31 = $4650
Reserve costs = $1500
Finance costs = $5520
Fixed costs = $7000
------------------------------------------
$18670 / year

I'm sure you can own an Archer for cheaper than this, especially if
you can shop around, do some of your own maintenance, and get lucky
with (no) major maintenance.

One offsetting variable, used airplanes typically appreciate, which
can offset some of the costs, but I sure would not count on it - as
light GA has not shown much price growth in the last 2-3 years.

-Nathan