Stealth bird

Just some ramblings on stealth.

When the Air Defense Command was in high gear with Radars all over the
States and over lapping coverage, we used 'skin paint' (vs beacon/IFF
or transponder) to located and track aircraft (we didn't think the
Russians would come in squawking for us). The FAA always used
beacon/transponder to make a large blip on their scope for traffic
control purposes.

With that background, what does FAA use today? If they do not use
'skin paint' why can't the 'glass' birds with a wooden prop, turn off
their transponder and fly through all the restricted areas unseen?

I'm not up to speed on current traffic control radar and if they both
'skin paint' and look at transponder returns?.

Anyone want to comment on this thread and expand?

Big John

In article ,
Big John wrote:

Just some ramblings on stealth.

When the Air Defense Command was in high gear with Radars all over the
States and over lapping coverage, we used 'skin paint' (vs beacon/IFF
or transponder) to located and track aircraft (we didn't think the
Russians would come in squawking for us). The FAA always used
beacon/transponder to make a large blip on their scope for traffic
control purposes.

With that background, what does FAA use today? If they do not use
'skin paint' why can't the 'glass' birds with a wooden prop, turn off
their transponder and fly through all the restricted areas unseen?

I'm not up to speed on current traffic control radar and if they both
'skin paint' and look at transponder returns?.

Anyone want to comment on this thread and expand?

Big John

There is still a fairly large RCS, even on a glass bird -- engine,
pilot, electronics, wiring, antennae, landing gear, etc. It would take a
lot of expertise to get the RCS down to stealth levels.

Orval

The only thing that reflects radar is metal or things (like paint)
that have metal in them.

The biggest contributor to the return is the engine.

WAG is that a 1 square foot flat plate might be close to equivalent
area reflecting radar if plan built?

A bird built for minimum return might even be less.

Some of the Stealth Birds are supposed to have a reflection equivalent
to a sparrow +/-. GA might get close to that with some special radar
absorbent paint, etc. ?

Big John


On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 21:35:35 GMT, Orval Fairbairn
wrote:

In article ,
Big John wrote:

Just some ramblings on stealth.

When the Air Defense Command was in high gear with Radars all over the
States and over lapping coverage, we used 'skin paint' (vs beacon/IFF
or transponder) to located and track aircraft (we didn't think the
Russians would come in squawking for us). The FAA always used
beacon/transponder to make a large blip on their scope for traffic
control purposes.

With that background, what does FAA use today? If they do not use
'skin paint' why can't the 'glass' birds with a wooden prop, turn off
their transponder and fly through all the restricted areas unseen?

I'm not up to speed on current traffic control radar and if they both
'skin paint' and look at transponder returns?.

Anyone want to comment on this thread and expand?

Big John

There is still a fairly large RCS, even on a glass bird -- engine,
pilot, electronics, wiring, antennae, landing gear, etc. It would take a
lot of expertise to get the RCS down to stealth levels.

Dave

Your words brought back memories. TNX. Should have remembered.

I still think homebuilders can build a Stealth bird.

Some shielding like in the 117 might be an easy way to reduce return
from areas that are not 'glass'.

Big John


On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 17:06:41 -0500, Dave Butler
wrote:

Big John wrote:

I'm not up to speed on current traffic control radar and if they both
'skin paint' and look at transponder returns?.

What you're calling 'skin paint' is what ATC calls "primary radar". The ATC
system that processes transponder returns is called "secondary radar", also
known as ATCRBS (Air Traffic Control Radar Beacon System).

Both kinds of radar operate simultaneously and using antennas that rotate together.

Occasionally you'll hear that either primary or secondary radar is out of
service at a particular facility. If secondary radar is out of service they have
to use some other means of identifying the primary radar returns. If primary
radar is out of service, they can see only transponder-equipped aircraft.

Remove SHIRT to reply directly.
Dave

Big John wrote:

I'm not up to speed on current traffic control radar and if they both
'skin paint' and look at transponder returns?.

What you're calling 'skin paint' is what ATC calls "primary radar". The ATC
system that processes transponder returns is called "secondary radar", also
known as ATCRBS (Air Traffic Control Radar Beacon System).

Both kinds of radar operate simultaneously and using antennas that rotate together.

Occasionally you'll hear that either primary or secondary radar is out of
service at a particular facility. If secondary radar is out of service they have
to use some other means of identifying the primary radar returns. If primary
radar is out of service, they can see only transponder-equipped aircraft.

Remove SHIRT to reply directly.
Dave

Used to fly to Mexico about 20 years back in a fabric covered
Tri-Pacer without a transponder. Once, we came back into the US,
cleared customs at Bisbee, AZ and continued on to Albuquerque, NM. We
were met there by customs again, wanting to count passengers. Our leg
to Albuquerque had been very slow with a headwind and they apparently
were not sure that we had not slipped back into Mexico.
--
Gene Seibel
Hangar 131 - http://pad39a.com/gene/plane.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.



Just some ramblings on stealth.

When the Air Defense Command was in high gear with Radars all over the
States and over lapping coverage, we used 'skin paint' (vs beacon/IFF
or transponder) to located and track aircraft (we didn't think the
Russians would come in squawking for us). The FAA always used
beacon/transponder to make a large blip on their scope for traffic
control purposes.

With that background, what does FAA use today? If they do not use
'skin paint' why can't the 'glass' birds with a wooden prop, turn off
their transponder and fly through all the restricted areas unseen?

I'm not up to speed on current traffic control radar and if they both
'skin paint' and look at transponder returns?.

Anyone want to comment on this thread and expand?

Big John

In article , Big John
wrote:

With that background, what does FAA use today? If they do not use
'skin paint' why can't the 'glass' birds with a wooden prop, turn off
their transponder and fly through all the restricted areas unseen?

at least some restricted areas augment the FAA radars with
primary radars that are better suited to the air defense role
than the FAA radars.

--
Bob Noel

they can still see my composite fiberglass glider with "skin paint", they
are required to watch for "primary returns" below FL180. Some aircraft are
still exempt from carrying transponders.. like balloons, gliders and J-3
cubs..

BT

"Orval Fairbairn" wrote in message
news
In article ,
Big John wrote:

Just some ramblings on stealth.

When the Air Defense Command was in high gear with Radars all over the
States and over lapping coverage, we used 'skin paint' (vs beacon/IFF
or transponder) to located and track aircraft (we didn't think the
Russians would come in squawking for us). The FAA always used
beacon/transponder to make a large blip on their scope for traffic
control purposes.

With that background, what does FAA use today? If they do not use
'skin paint' why can't the 'glass' birds with a wooden prop, turn off
their transponder and fly through all the restricted areas unseen?

I'm not up to speed on current traffic control radar and if they both
'skin paint' and look at transponder returns?.

Anyone want to comment on this thread and expand?

Big John

There is still a fairly large RCS, even on a glass bird -- engine,
pilot, electronics, wiring, antennae, landing gear, etc. It would take a
lot of expertise to get the RCS down to stealth levels.

glass can be seen, its the square corners (wing fuse joints) and flat
surfaces (wing underside in a turn and vert fin) also reflect radar energy..
does not have to be metal..

BT

"Big John" wrote in message
...
Dave

Your words brought back memories. TNX. Should have remembered.

I still think homebuilders can build a Stealth bird.

Some shielding like in the 117 might be an easy way to reduce return
from areas that are not 'glass'.

Big John


On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 17:06:41 -0500, Dave Butler
wrote:

Big John wrote:

I'm not up to speed on current traffic control radar and if they both
'skin paint' and look at transponder returns?.

What you're calling 'skin paint' is what ATC calls "primary radar". The
ATC
system that processes transponder returns is called "secondary radar",
also
known as ATCRBS (Air Traffic Control Radar Beacon System).

Both kinds of radar operate simultaneously and using antennas that rotate
together.

Occasionally you'll hear that either primary or secondary radar is out of
service at a particular facility. If secondary radar is out of service
they have
to use some other means of identifying the primary radar returns. If
primary
radar is out of service, they can see only transponder-equipped aircraft.

Remove SHIRT to reply directly.
Dave

The only thing that reflects radar is metal or things (like paint)
that have metal in them.

Some of the Stealth Birds are supposed to have a reflection equivalent
to a sparrow

So, exactly how much metal is used in the construction of the modern
sparrow? ;^)