Sneaking across Lake Superior undetected

All:

Can a 172 flying at 200 feet above water across Lake Superior get through
undetected by radar or AWACS? Are there holes in radar coverage?

I ask cuz I'm a mystery novelist at work on a new whodunit and wonder what
goes on when a small plane flies from Canada to the United States over a
Great Lake. I presume the small plane has to land at an official port of
entry so Customs can go over it looking for bad stuff.

Also, when a plane crosses the border does it have to be in radio contact
with ATC? (Being deaf, I'm a NORDO pilot so don't know anything about that
stuff.)

Thanks to all.

Henry

Can a 172 flying at 200 feet above water across Lake Superior get through
undetected by radar or AWACS? Are there holes in radar coverage?

You would have a good chance of sneaking through radar but if an AWAC
were monitoring the area then you don't have a chance. When I lived in
the middle east they could detect pickup trucks smuggling Scotch across
the border from Yemen.
--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Almost Instrument
Cessna 172H C-GICE

that's why all those balloons have been placed along the southern border..
they look down on the drug smugglers.. keep this up and we'll have them
along the northern boarders too.

BTW, I'd hate to be the one flying a C172 over the lake at 200ft AGL, get
out away from either shore... loose the horizon and depth perception.. and
splash..

BT

"tony roberts" wrote in message
news:nospam-BF5DB8.18453227122003@shawnews...
Can a 172 flying at 200 feet above water across Lake Superior get
through
undetected by radar or AWACS? Are there holes in radar coverage?

You would have a good chance of sneaking through radar but if an AWAC
were monitoring the area then you don't have a chance. When I lived in
the middle east they could detect pickup trucks smuggling Scotch across
the border from Yemen.
--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Almost Instrument
Cessna 172H C-GICE

Can a 172 flying at 200 feet above water across Lake Superior get through
undetected by radar or AWACS? Are there holes in radar coverage?

With the transponder off, and at low altitude, I suspect a 172 could get
across the more remote portions of Lake Superior without being seen on ATC
radar. I'm not sure how much the controllers really notice tracks that
don't have a transponder data block. Maybe there wouldn't even be a track
visible on their scopes, maybe the return would be painted but not noticed
by the computer, and maybe it would be noticed by the computer but ignored
by a controller who had plenty of other things to worry about. You are
writing a novel here, and it doesn't need to be 100% accurate on things like
this. If I read this in a novel, I could suspend any disbelief, at least in
relation to ATC radar.

AWACS would be a whole different ballgame. If an AWACS was on station and
specifically tasked with looking for this 172 (or just covering the Lake
Superior area), I strongly suspect that it would find it. The 172 is boxy,
with all kinds of right angles and things sticking off of it to produce a
radar return. It's radar cross section is pretty large for such a small
plane, especially from above.

Some of what you descrive would depend on where the AWACS was stationed. If
it were flying an orbit over Michigan, for example, then flying low wouldn't
help very much. The idea behind flying low is typically to either get below
the radar horizon, get lost in ground clutter, or both. An AWACS flying
nice and high would be able to see the entire surface of Lake Superior, so
you wouldn't be able to get underneath the horizon. And a flat lake surface
wouldn't produce much in the way of ground clutter to hide in. More to the
point, the AWACS was specically designed to look for low targets, and it's
radar is unlikely to get confused easily.

If I was reading about a 172 that was able to sneak past an AWACS, I don't
think I really could suspend my disbelief. Maybe if the book was written by
someone who knew the AWACS systems really well, but not otherwise.

The one caveat to this might be if the AWACS was specifically looking for
only high-speed targets, and the 172 was flying very, very, slowly. I don't
know anything about the AWACS radar specifically, but most systems can be
set to ignore radar tracks that are beneath a certain speed. This way, the
system operators aren't presented with a bunch of returns coming off of cars
on an interstate highway or watercraft on the lake. If the AWACS was on
station looking for something fast, and the 172 was in slow flight, then
maybe (and this is a big maybe) the radar return from the 172 -- while the
computer would see it and recognize it for what it was -- would never show
up on the scopes because the computer would judge it to be too slow to be of
any concern. Tom Clancy used this trick in his book "Debt of Honor". A
helicopter flys directly over a train, matching it's speed. The airborne
radar detects it, but the radar crew adjusts the system filters to ignore
it, since they are sure it is a harmless train.

That is somewhat believable for a helicopter (which can fly as slow as it
wants) over land, and especially over a land with very fast trains like
Japan. But a 172 over Lake Superior wouldn't have many things it could
pretend to be. It could never go slow enough to pretend it was a freighter
or other commercial vessel on the lake. It probably could go slower than a
speedboat, but I personally wouldn't want to be on that boat running at 50
knots across the shipping channels of a choppy Lake Superior.

Good luck with your novel!

BTIZ wrote:

BTW, I'd hate to be the one flying a C172 over the lake at 200ft AGL, get
out away from either shore... loose the horizon and depth perception.. and
splash..

That's what a dual axis Bendix/King KAP 140 prevents... ;-)

--
Peter










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"Peter R." wrote in message
...
BTIZ wrote:

BTW, I'd hate to be the one flying a C172 over the lake at 200ft AGL,
get
out away from either shore... loose the horizon and depth perception..
and
splash..

That's what a dual axis Bendix/King KAP 140 prevents... ;-)

--
Peter

flying that distance.. over water.. will result in pressure changes.. CAP140
flies on pressure?? if the pressure over distance is moving the wrong way...
splash..

BT

"tony roberts" wrote in message news:nospam-BF5DB8.18453227122003@shawnews...
Can a 172 flying at 200 feet above water across Lake Superior get through
undetected by radar or AWACS? Are there holes in radar coverage?

You would have a good chance of sneaking through radar but if an AWAC
were monitoring the area then you don't have a chance. When I lived in
the middle east they could detect pickup trucks smuggling Scotch across
the border from Yemen.
--

Agreed... Airborne radars can see to the ground. We've got them patrolling
the DC area and they can see stuff that ATC doesn't have a clue about.

On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 19:44:18 -0600, "Henry Kisor"
wrote:

All:

Can a 172 flying at 200 feet above water across Lake Superior get through
undetected by radar or AWACS? Are there holes in radar coverage?

Under normal circumstances, that would be an unequivocal yes. However
these are not normal times. The northern borders are pretty heavily
patrolled and like coming across the Gulf it's unlikely the plane
would make it undetected.

Also, IF detected coming across Lake Superior at 200 feet? That is
more than a little suspicious.

I'd bet dollars to donuts the plane would be greeted at the US side
with an escort. That is of course if they were not coming ashore near
a sensitive area. Then they'd pick up an escort and be "urged" to
change course and come ashore where the military preferred.

Fail to change course and ... well, Lake Superior is large and they
don't have to worry about *stuff* falling on civilians.


I ask cuz I'm a mystery novelist at work on a new whodunit and wonder what
goes on when a small plane flies from Canada to the United States over a
Great Lake. I presume the small plane has to land at an official port of
entry so Customs can go over it looking for bad stuff.

Also, when a plane crosses the border does it have to be in radio contact
with ATC? (Being deaf, I'm a NORDO pilot so don't know anything about that
stuff.)

Are you a Pilot?
Without going into detail, NOTAMS and FSS will brief a pilot on what
is required and what must be done.

I do not think it wise to give out that particular information on a
news group, even if it is widely available to all pilots.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member & Great Lakes area pilot)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair?)
www.rogerhalstead.com


Thanks to all.

Henry

I have been intercepted (in the middle of the country, not at the edges) at
least twice. This happened more than 10 years ago.

Once was by a pair of F15's that I spotted climbing toward me. They got
to my altitude, turned parallel in the opposite direction, did a 180 turn
then a roll as they came by. I was flying a quite small plane and I would
bet money that this was a radar intercept.

The other one I never saw, but was told about it by the crew of the
intercepting aircraft. They just followed me around a bit testing out their
stuff.

There is no doubt in my mind that any airplane at any altitude can be picked
up by either ground or airborne radar if the operators want to. The trick is
to decide which target you want to watch.



In article , "Ron Natalie"
wrote:

"tony roberts" wrote in message
news:nospam-BF5DB8.18453227122003@shawnews...
Can a 172 flying at 200 feet above water across Lake Superior get through
undetected by radar or AWACS? Are there holes in radar coverage?

You would have a good chance of sneaking through radar but if an AWAC
were monitoring the area then you don't have a chance. When I lived in
the middle east they could detect pickup trucks smuggling Scotch across
the border from Yemen.
--

Agreed... Airborne radars can see to the ground. We've got them patrolling
the DC area and they can see stuff that ATC doesn't have a clue about.

I just KNEW somebody would call me "Osama." But thanks to everyone who
answered my message. The long and short of the answers I have received is
"Maybe, but not likely." I'll have my evasive pilot (not a terrorist but a
good guy on a mercy mission of sorts) file a flight plan, cross the lake at
a reasonable altitude, have "engine trouble" and land well short of his
posted point of arrival to offload his cargo before the sheriff arrives.

Now how could I fix the engine to seem to have had engine trouble? Loosen a
couple of magneto leads? Anyone?

Henry


"Nomen Nescio" ] wrote in message
...
From: "Henry Kisor"

Can a 172 flying at 200 feet above water across Lake Superior get through
undetected by radar or AWACS? Are there holes in radar coverage?

Nice try, Osama!