Anybody running a Butterfly Vario with XCSoar?

Got a question: the Butterfly wind vector and the XCSoar wind vector (derived from Butterfly information) seem to disagree by 180 degrees. That is they point toward each other. XCSoar seems to believe it too, based on glide calculations. I am using the LX format output on the Butterfly. I am assuming the arrow on each is intended to point the direction the wind it blowing towards, I.e., a vector. From observation, the Butterfly appears to be correct, XCSoar 180 off. Has anyone seen this?

Another question for XCSoar users: There must be some better way to edit a task in the air than I have discovered. The only way I have found to do it is (Double tap)NavTaskTurnpointsAdd TurnpointAdd Turnpoint again (or select)(Scroll through list and find turn point)(Select turn point)(Select again or touch 'Select')(Hit up arrow several times to get it to the right place)CloseFly. Minimum of 12 taps and maybe a lot more. There must be a much quicker way with a lot less head down time. What is it?

On Sunday, July 14, 2013 2:08:50 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
Got a question: the Butterfly wind vector and the XCSoar wind vector (derived from Butterfly information) seem to disagree by 180 degrees. That is they point toward each other. XCSoar seems to believe it too, based on glide calculations. I am using the LX format output on the Butterfly. I am assuming the arrow on each is intended to point the direction the wind it blowing towards, I.e., a vector. From observation, the Butterfly appears to be correct, XCSoar 180 off. Has anyone seen this?



Another question for XCSoar users: There must be some better way to edit a task in the air than I have discovered. The only way I have found to do it is (Double tap)NavTaskTurnpointsAdd TurnpointAdd Turnpoint again (or select)(Scroll through list and find turn point)(Select turn point)(Select again or touch 'Select')(Hit up arrow several times to get it to the right place)CloseFly. Minimum of 12 taps and maybe a lot more. There must be a much quicker way with a lot less head down time. What is it?

Well, it only saves a few taps, but the gesture to get into the nav stuff
is right, down. That will take you directly to the task calculation screen..
Getting to the turnpoint stuff takes 1 tap after that. The gesture really
comes in handy when flying a time-distance task (AAT or MAT), though.

Matt

On Sunday, July 14, 2013 2:08:50 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
Got a question: the Butterfly wind vector and the XCSoar wind vector (derived from Butterfly information) seem to disagree by 180 degrees. That is they point toward each other. XCSoar seems to believe it too, based on glide calculations.

Could you please confirm that you are saying that when XCSoar uses wind data from Butterfly Vario that it calculates glide based on the exact opposite of the correct wind vector? If so, that is a rather serious defect and you should report it to XCSoar.org pronto.

On Sunday, July 14, 2013 7:28:17 PM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Sunday, July 14, 2013 2:08:50 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

Got a question: the Butterfly wind vector and the XCSoar wind vector (derived from Butterfly information) seem to disagree by 180 degrees. That is they point toward each other. XCSoar seems to believe it too, based on glide calculations.



Could you please confirm that you are saying that when XCSoar uses wind data from Butterfly Vario that it calculates glide based on the exact opposite of the correct wind vector? If so, that is a rather serious defect and you should report it to XCSoar.org pronto.

Yes - actually it seems to compute correctly, just that the Butterfly and XCSoar don't agree on which way the wind is blowing. I think. Can you confirm that the arrow in XCSoar points the direction the wind is blowing (as distinct from pointing into the wind)? What I thought I was seeing was an increase in tailwind component reported by the Butterfly increased my glide range on the Butterfly, and reduced it in XCSoar. Consistent, given that the arrows seem to be backwards. I don't know if that is an XCSoar bug or a Butterfly bug. The wind is coming from the Butterfly via LX sentence protocol.

The Butterfly computes wind VERY rapidly from the ISU. This was interesting in the rough thermals on Saturday. Not uncommon to feel a strong side gust, look at the Butterfly and see it report a very large wind vector change in response. It is unclear how this is smoothed for glide calcs, but maybe not at all - XCSoar always followed the Butterfly vector exactly, just 180 degrees out on direction.

I will report it as soon as they let me in the door.....

On Sunday, July 14, 2013 6:39:47 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, July 14, 2013 2:08:50 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

Got a question: the Butterfly wind vector and the XCSoar wind vector (derived from Butterfly information) seem to disagree by 180 degrees. That is they point toward each other. XCSoar seems to believe it too, based on glide calculations. I am using the LX format output on the Butterfly. I am assuming the arrow on each is intended to point the direction the wind it blowing towards, I.e., a vector. From observation, the Butterfly appears to be correct, XCSoar 180 off. Has anyone seen this?







Another question for XCSoar users: There must be some better way to edit a task in the air than I have discovered. The only way I have found to do it is (Double tap)NavTaskTurnpointsAdd TurnpointAdd Turnpoint again (or select)(Scroll through list and find turn point)(Select turn point)(Select again or touch 'Select')(Hit up arrow several times to get it to the right place)CloseFly. Minimum of 12 taps and maybe a lot more. There must be a much quicker way with a lot less head down time. What is it?



Well, it only saves a few taps, but the gesture to get into the nav stuff

is right, down. That will take you directly to the task calculation screen.

Getting to the turnpoint stuff takes 1 tap after that. The gesture really

comes in handy when flying a time-distance task (AAT or MAT), though.



Matt

OK, the gesture helps, removes two taps. Why don't they have touch & hold semantics like everyone else? I guess I will suggest that if they let me onto the forum.

On Sunday, July 14, 2013 11:08:50 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
Got a question: the Butterfly wind vector and the XCSoar wind vector (derived from Butterfly information) seem to disagree by 180 degrees. That is they point toward each other. XCSoar seems to believe it too, based on glide calculations. I am using the LX format output on the Butterfly. I am assuming the arrow on each is intended to point the direction the wind it blowing towards, I.e., a vector. From observation, the Butterfly appears to be correct, XCSoar 180 off. Has anyone seen this? Another question for XCSoar users: There must be some better way to edit a task in the air than I have discovered. The only way I have found to do it is (Double tap)NavTaskTurnpointsAdd TurnpointAdd Turnpoint again (or select)(Scroll through list and find turn point)(Select turn point)(Select again or touch 'Select')(Hit up arrow several times to get it to the right place)CloseFly. Minimum of 12 taps and maybe a lot more. There must be a much quicker way with a lot less head down time. What is it?

In my glider the Butterfly wind is similar to the PowerFlarm - V7(ISU firmware) - Ultimate Le running SeeYou PNA. So I don't think it is a Butterfly problem.

Richard
Craggy Aero LLC

On Sunday, July 14, 2013 11:09:15 PM UTC-4, Richard wrote:
On Sunday, July 14, 2013 11:08:50 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:

Got a question: the Butterfly wind vector and the XCSoar wind vector (derived from Butterfly information) seem to disagree by 180 degrees. That is they point toward each other. XCSoar seems to believe it too, based on glide calculations. I am using the LX format output on the Butterfly. I am assuming the arrow on each is intended to point the direction the wind it blowing towards, I.e., a vector. From observation, the Butterfly appears to be correct, XCSoar 180 off. Has anyone seen this? Another question for XCSoar users: There must be some better way to edit a task in the air than I have discovered. The only way I have found to do it is (Double tap)NavTaskTurnpointsAdd TurnpointAdd Turnpoint again (or select)(Scroll through list and find turn point)(Select turn point)(Select again or touch 'Select')(Hit up arrow several times to get it to the right place)CloseFly. Minimum of 12 taps and maybe a lot more. There must be a much quicker way with a lot less head down time. What is it?



In my glider the Butterfly wind is similar to the PowerFlarm - V7(ISU firmware) - Ultimate Le running SeeYou PNA. So I don't think it is a Butterfly problem.



Richard

Craggy Aero LLC

It's interesting that when I was using SoarPilot with Condor a while back
it would interpret the wind data coming in the LX sentences in the opposite
direction that Condor indicated. Now, when I use XCSoar the wind always
agrees exactly with Condor. A number of years ago I had SoarPilot connected
to an LX5000, but I wound up treating it as a generic GPS source rather
than using the vario data since SP's lift graph never worked right if I
told it it was connected to an LX.

On a related note I'm hoping to finally see what XCSoar makes of my
Clearnav data this weekend.

Matt

On Sunday, July 14, 2013 8:09:15 PM UTC-7, Richard wrote:
On Sunday, July 14, 2013 11:08:50 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:

Got a question: the Butterfly wind vector and the XCSoar wind vector (derived from Butterfly information) seem to disagree by 180 degrees. That is they point toward each other. XCSoar seems to believe it too, based on glide calculations. I am using the LX format output on the Butterfly. I am assuming the arrow on each is intended to point the direction the wind it blowing towards, I.e., a vector. From observation, the Butterfly appears to be correct, XCSoar 180 off. Has anyone seen this? Another question for XCSoar users: There must be some better way to edit a task in the air than I have discovered. The only way I have found to do it is (Double tap)NavTaskTurnpointsAdd TurnpointAdd Turnpoint again (or select)(Scroll through list and find turn point)(Select turn point)(Select again or touch 'Select')(Hit up arrow several times to get it to the right place)CloseFly. Minimum of 12 taps and maybe a lot more. There must be a much quicker way with a lot less head down time. What is it?



In my glider the Butterfly wind is similar to the PowerFlarm - V7(ISU firmware) - Ultimate Le running SeeYou PNA. So I don't think it is a Butterfly problem.



Richard

Craggy Aero LLC

Richard, do you have the Butterfly putting out LX or CAI format?

I think the wind was correct on Winpilot (but I wasn't paying much attention at that moment) so maybe it is a XCSoar problem. I do have XCSoar configured for LX input - should try something else and see if the wind suddenly reverses.

On Sunday, July 14, 2013 8:08:50 PM UTC+2, jfitch wrote:
Got a question: the Butterfly wind vector and the XCSoar wind vector (derived from Butterfly information) seem to disagree by 180 degrees. That is they point toward each other. XCSoar seems to believe it too, based on glide calculations. I am using the LX format output on the Butterfly. I am assuming the arrow on each is intended to point the direction the wind it blowing towards, I.e., a vector. From observation, the Butterfly appears to be correct, XCSoar 180 off. Has anyone seen this?

This sounds very much like the Butterfly firmware bug that was reported to the XCSoar bug tracker 4 months ago:

http://bugs.xcsoar.org/ticket/2660

On Monday, July 15, 2013 3:44:56 AM UTC-7, Max Kellermann wrote:
On Sunday, July 14, 2013 8:08:50 PM UTC+2, jfitch wrote:

Got a question: the Butterfly wind vector and the XCSoar wind vector (derived from Butterfly information) seem to disagree by 180 degrees. That is they point toward each other. XCSoar seems to believe it too, based on glide calculations. I am using the LX format output on the Butterfly. I am assuming the arrow on each is intended to point the direction the wind it blowing towards, I.e., a vector. From observation, the Butterfly appears to be correct, XCSoar 180 off. Has anyone seen this?



This sounds very much like the Butterfly firmware bug that was reported to the XCSoar bug tracker 4 months ago:



http://bugs.xcsoar.org/ticket/2660

I will get to the bottom of this. Please tell me, what is the assumption of XCSoar?

In particular, a CAI 302 !w sentence that looks like this:

!w,180,30,5,,,,,,,,,,*hh

would be interpreted how? Wind blowing from north towards the south, or south towards the north?
(my interpretation of the description "vector wind direction in degrees" indicates from north to south)

In an LX mode, an $LXWP0 sentence that looks like this:

$LXWP0,,,,,,,,,,180,3*hh

would be interpreted how? Wind blowing from north towards the south, or south towards the north?
(description is less clear, "windcourse" would seem to mean same thing as Cambridge)


How does one get access to the XCSoar forum and bug reporting scheme? I registered over the weekend, but my registration is being held I guess.