Don't sell your loran

At the controller's "Communicating for Safety" conference, one-time FAA
Administrator Langhorn Bond told me that loran is coming back as a backup to
GPS. He obviously sits on a lot of committees, work groups, etc
internationally, and has a lot of good info. He pointed out that on two
occasions sunspots have essentially shut down GPS, and he believes that
sole-source GPS may never happen. He was particularly disturbed by a GPS
NOTAM saying, in essence, that if you have WAAS you don't need anything
else.

Controllers as a group are unhappy with approach designers, who do not work
with ATC facilities when designing GPS approaches. Angel Fire, NM, was given
as an example...one IAF 15 miles from the centerpost fix on a basic-T TAA,
with the missed approach waypoint 20 miles from the airport. A 172 on the
GPS approach can shut down thousands of square miles of airspace, overlying
several airports and some Nellis AFB IR routes, for 45 minutes to an hour if
they execute the miss to the missed approach hold. The controllers would
prefer that pilots ask for alternative miss procedures that would keep them
in closer before they initiate the approach.

Bob Gardner

Actually, the reason I wasn't going to sell my LORAN was that last time
I looked on eBay someone had one up for $9 which got no bids...

--
Ben Jackson

http://www.ben.com/

Honestly, I'm not at all sure that the existing boxes will fill the bill
when this all comes to pass. I can see a combo GPS/Loran box in the
future...the distant future.

Bob

"Ben Jackson" wrote in message
news:zLYhc.4691$0u6.982801@attbi_s03...
Actually, the reason I wasn't going to sell my LORAN was that last time
I looked on eBay someone had one up for $9 which got no bids...

--
Ben Jackson

http://www.ben.com/

"Ben Jackson" wrote in message
news:zLYhc.4691$0u6.982801@attbi_s03...
Actually, the reason I wasn't going to sell my LORAN was that last time
I looked on eBay someone had one up for $9 which got no bids...

Put it in your car by the sun visor; that way criminals will steal it rather
than your radar detector.

I find it hard to believe that sunspots bad enough to shut down the GPS
frequencies won't play havoc with the LF frequencies used by LORAN. In terms of
frequency, the best alternative to GPS is probably ground-based VHF/UHF
(VOR/DME) navigation.

Dave Reinhart


Bob Gardner wrote:

At the controller's "Communicating for Safety" conference, one-time FAA
Administrator Langhorn Bond told me that loran is coming back as a backup to
GPS. He obviously sits on a lot of committees, work groups, etc
internationally, and has a lot of good info. He pointed out that on two
occasions sunspots have essentially shut down GPS, and he believes that
sole-source GPS may never happen. He was particularly disturbed by a GPS
NOTAM saying, in essence, that if you have WAAS you don't need anything
else.

Controllers as a group are unhappy with approach designers, who do not work
with ATC facilities when designing GPS approaches. Angel Fire, NM, was given
as an example...one IAF 15 miles from the centerpost fix on a basic-T TAA,
with the missed approach waypoint 20 miles from the airport. A 172 on the
GPS approach can shut down thousands of square miles of airspace, overlying
several airports and some Nellis AFB IR routes, for 45 minutes to an hour if
they execute the miss to the missed approach hold. The controllers would
prefer that pilots ask for alternative miss procedures that would keep them
in closer before they initiate the approach.

Bob Gardner

In article xxYhc.4538$cF6.228992@attbi_s04, "Bob Gardner"
wrote:

At the controller's "Communicating for Safety" conference, one-time FAA
Administrator Langhorn Bond told me that loran is coming back as a backup
to
GPS.

otoh - keeping LORAN working properly with precip static is not
easy...

--
Bob Noel

"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
news:xxYhc.4538$cF6.228992@attbi_s04...


Controllers as a group are unhappy with approach designers, who do not
work
with ATC facilities when designing GPS approaches.

The designs aren't so bad, it's the godawful names of the fixes they come up
with.

The controllers would
prefer that pilots ask for alternative miss procedures that would keep
them
in closer before they initiate the approach.

Pilots don't have to ask for it, controllers can assign them. Controllers
can deny the use of a published missed. For example do you think at any
major terminal you will do a published missed?

Were you at the conference? I would have bought you a beer. All I can do is
report what went on at the conference...I am neither a controller nor an FAA
bigwig.

Bob Gardner

"Newps" wrote in message
...

"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
news:xxYhc.4538$cF6.228992@attbi_s04...


Controllers as a group are unhappy with approach designers, who do not
work
with ATC facilities when designing GPS approaches.

The designs aren't so bad, it's the godawful names of the fixes they come
up
with.

The controllers would
prefer that pilots ask for alternative miss procedures that would keep
them
in closer before they initiate the approach.

Pilots don't have to ask for it, controllers can assign them. Controllers
can deny the use of a published missed. For example do you think at any
major terminal you will do a published missed?

Off the top of my head, I don't think that sunspots in and of themselves
will be a problem much of the time. However, some kind of backup is needed.
Having spent a portion of my life on the transmitter end of loran, I
understand its limitations...but I have to wonder...how often will solar
activity and precip static coincide when I am flying? The odds are pretty
good in my favor.

Bob Gardner

"Bob Noel" wrote in message
...
In article xxYhc.4538$cF6.228992@attbi_s04, "Bob Gardner"
wrote:

At the controller's "Communicating for Safety" conference, one-time FAA
Administrator Langhorn Bond told me that loran is coming back as a
backup
to
GPS.

otoh - keeping LORAN working properly with precip static is not
easy...

--
Bob Noel

I would prefer to have one of those boxes (I forget what they're called
- they're from before my time 8^) ) that creates virtual waypoints using
VORs and DME. I would think that would be the ideal alternative to GPS,
seeing as the VOR/DME signals are less susceptible to environmentally
caused signal degradation.

I've never used a LORAN either, so I don't have any personal experience
with how they behave overall. But if they can be compared to NDB/ADF
behavior in any way, count me out.

Dave Blevins

On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 23:27:25 GMT, "Bob Gardner"
wrote:

At the controller's "Communicating for Safety" conference, one-time FAA
Administrator Langhorn Bond told me that loran is coming back as a backup to
GPS. He obviously sits on a lot of committees, work groups, etc
internationally, and has a lot of good info. He pointed out that on two
occasions sunspots have essentially shut down GPS, and he believes that
sole-source GPS may never happen. He was particularly disturbed by a GPS
NOTAM saying, in essence, that if you have WAAS you don't need anything
else.

Controllers as a group are unhappy with approach designers, who do not work
with ATC facilities when designing GPS approaches. Angel Fire, NM, was given
as an example...one IAF 15 miles from the centerpost fix on a basic-T TAA,
with the missed approach waypoint 20 miles from the airport. A 172 on the
GPS approach can shut down thousands of square miles of airspace, overlying
several airports and some Nellis AFB IR routes, for 45 minutes to an hour if
they execute the miss to the missed approach hold. The controllers would
prefer that pilots ask for alternative miss procedures that would keep them
in closer before they initiate the approach.

Bob Gardner