"Cleared Straight-In Runway X; Report Y Miles Final"

Hi, all. Ran into this one flying back from KOSH a couple weeks ago:

I check in with the KPRC controller "20 Miles NE" of Love Field in Prescott,
AZ. She clears me with "Cleared Straight-in Runway 21L, Report 5 miles
final."

I fly directly towards the numbers. My heading was approximately 240
(hence, I'm ~30 deg off of the extended centerline).

At 5 miles from the airport (still offset from the centerline), I report "5
mile final." She questions my position and gets all snippy (indeed, darn
right rude) that I am "not on final" since I am not on the extended
centerline. She patronizingly cautions me to be "careful about this."

Hence, the question is "What does 'Cleared Straight-in; Report X miles
Final" really mean?" Is it. . . .

(1) You must fly directly from your current position to a point on the
extended centerline that is X miles from the numbers, and then report
(sounds like a base to me).

or

(2) You can fly directly from your current position to the numbers (thus
"straight-in"), and report when you are X miles away.

I obviously vote for #2, but the controller clearly thought otherwise (it
seems to me that if 30 deg = "straight-in" in the IFR domain, it ought to
work well enough for VFR situations). Regardless, it is potentially
dangerous when controllers and pilots define things differently. Which
definition is right?

Regards, Jim

"Jim Cummiskey" wrote in message
...
[...]
Hence, the question is "What does 'Cleared Straight-in; Report X miles
Final" really mean?" Is it. . . .

(1) You must fly directly from your current position to a point on the
extended centerline that is X miles from the numbers, and then report
(sounds like a base to me).

or

(2) You can fly directly from your current position to the numbers (thus
"straight-in"), and report when you are X miles away.

I always try to be on the extended centerline by 2 miles or so. Depending
on how far out I'm starting, or what the specific instructions were, I might
need to be on the extended centerline earlier.

In your case, I see two problems, both related to your original instruction
and the definition of "final". IMHO, you were within your rights to fly
direct to the runway, if you really wanted to. However, you should not have
called your position as "final". To me, "final" specifically means that
you're on the extended centerline, which you were not.

The AIM defines "final" in the pilot/controller glossary as "commonly used
to mean that an aircraft is on the final approach course or is aligned with
a landing area". Note that "final approach course" is relevant only for an
instrument approach (and is well-defined by that instrument approach
procedure, and is almost always aligned with the runway), and so the only
definition relevant to your situation specifically says that "final" is
aligned with the runway.

The second issue is, of course, whether you obeyed the controller's
instruction. Since the word "final" means something very specific, it's
clear to me that the controller expected you to fly to a point 5 miles out
on the extended centerline and report that point. You didn't do that. You
should have told her you weren't going to do that.

So...you certainly were within your rights to fly the approach you did, but
a) you should have told the controller your intent to deviate from her
instruction, and b) you should not have reported your position as "final"
since you weren't on the extended centerline.

Hope that helps...

Pete

"Shirley" wrote in message
...

That's my question too ... why would you consciously choose to fly 30°
off? why
*wouldn't* you line yourself up with the centerline (*straight*-in)?

To get there faster, although from 20 miles out you probably won't notice
any difference. Making a 30 degree turn on short final is simple - in fact
many controllers will say "proceed directly to threshold", or some similar
instruction while you are turning downwind to base to get you in faster if
there is traffic in sequence behind you .

I have been DIRECTED to proceed direct to the runway.. it was about a
30-40degree cut and to "expedite"... it was a matter of timing for the
controller.. to get me in.. I did my 30 degree turn over the numbers in the
flare..

BT

"Michael 182" wrote in message
news:ZAURc.231934$%_6.84034@attbi_s01...

"Shirley" wrote in message
...

That's my question too ... why would you consciously choose to fly 30°
off? why
*wouldn't* you line yourself up with the centerline (*straight*-in)?

To get there faster, although from 20 miles out you probably won't notice
any difference. Making a 30 degree turn on short final is simple - in fact
many controllers will say "proceed directly to threshold", or some similar
instruction while you are turning downwind to base to get you in faster if
there is traffic in sequence behind you .

On Mon, 9 Aug 2004 22:15:54 GMT, "Jim Cummiskey"
wrote:

I fly directly towards the numbers. My heading was approximately 240
(hence, I'm ~30 deg off of the extended centerline).

At 5 miles from the airport (still offset from the centerline), I report "5
mile final." She questions my position and gets all snippy (indeed, darn
right rude) that I am "not on final" since I am not on the extended
centerline. She patronizingly cautions me to be "careful about this."

I would NOT report five mile *final* unless I were on the extended
centerline. And if I were in the air, and someone reported five mile
final, I would be looking for the a/c along the extended centerline -- not
2.5-3 miles North of the extended centerline.

In your situation, I would either have done a dog leg to join the extended
centerline five miles out, or requested a base entry.


--ron

There's a difference, at least here in Canada, between 'cleared direct'
and 'cleared straight-in'. (I'm not sure if this applies to the US or
elsewhere...)

"Cleared direct [runway X]" is supposed to mean "Turn immediately toward
the threshold of [runway X]". This means that you will be off-centreline
for most of the approach.

"Cleared straight-in" is supposed to mean "Continue present course until
you intercept extended centreline of [runway X], then fly down the
centreline."

This is from a couple of instructors, including our Chief Flight
Instructor, and I've read it in at least one Canadian textbook. I can't
find anything in the AIP on a quick review, though.

Brian.
PP-ASEL/Night

The term 'final' may have a correct definition according to the AIM, but
why would the controller care whether you fly a straight-final or an
angled-final unless there is a traffic conflict? In that case, the
controller should have issued a traffic alert and to maintain visual
separation. In the absence of any such alert, I can only assume that the
controller was just having a bad day.






Ron Rosenfeld wrote in
:

On Mon, 9 Aug 2004 22:15:54 GMT, "Jim Cummiskey"
wrote:

I fly directly towards the numbers. My heading was approximately 240
(hence, I'm ~30 deg off of the extended centerline).

At 5 miles from the airport (still offset from the centerline), I
report "5 mile final." She questions my position and gets all snippy
(indeed, darn right rude) that I am "not on final" since I am not on
the extended centerline. She patronizingly cautions me to be "careful
about this."

I would NOT report five mile *final* unless I were on the extended
centerline. And if I were in the air, and someone reported five mile
final, I would be looking for the a/c along the extended centerline --
not 2.5-3 miles North of the extended centerline.

In your situation, I would either have done a dog leg to join the
extended centerline five miles out, or requested a base entry.


--ron

That's my question too ... why would you consciously choose to fly 30°
off? why
*wouldn't* you line yourself up with the centerline (*straight*-in)?

To get there faster, although from 20 miles out you probably won't notice
any difference. Making a 30 degree turn on short final is simple - in fact
many controllers will say "proceed directly to threshold", or some similar
instruction while you are turning downwind to base to get you in faster if
there is traffic in sequence behind you .

Ya know, if as the subject says, cleared straight in Runway X, report Y miles
Final, it's reasonable to assume you were to report Y miles out on final, not
on a modifed base leg or something. It'd be different if the instruction was
"cleared straight in, report 5 miles.", IMHO. In the latter case, it means
coming inside the 5 mile bubble, in the former, I at least would take it to
mean "on final" not on base or an entry leg.

Yeah, it's splitting hairs. It might matter if approach had other inbound
traffic on that runway and had told them to be alert for someone 5 miles out on
a straight in. "Traffic not in sight" makes me feel very uncomfortable, if I
have to say it or I hear it from an airplane that's supposed to follow me in.

Now I'll go find some more hairs to split

Andrew Sarangan wrote:
The term 'final' may have a correct definition according to the AIM,
but
why would the controller care whether you fly a straight-final or an
angled-final unless there is a traffic conflict?

So that the controller can plan on using the rest of the space to
sequence traffic. That's what they do.

In this case, keeping a plane on straight-in five mile final keeps the
entire downwind leg available, and planes can be sequenced both before
and after the plane on final.

If the plane went direct to the numbers and had to cross the downwind
leg (and that's the way I read it), most of the pattern would be
unusable when the plane got close. Light planes change speed quickly
too, so the time it would be unusable would be difficult to predict as
well.

In that case, the
controller should have issued a traffic alert and to maintain visual
separation.

The plane was 20 miles out. A zillion things can happen before it gets
there. Issuing a traffic alert would have been pointless.

In the absence of any such alert, I can only assume that the
controller was just having a bad day.

She kept the pattern squence moving, and even the plane 20 miles out
knew (or should have known) what to expect. It sounds to me like she
was having a great day.

unicate (Shirley) writes:

That's my question too ... why would you consciously choose to fly 30° off? why
*wouldn't* you line yourself up with the centerline (*straight*-in)?

Sometimes (but obviously not in this case) controllers will ask to
"take it to the numbers." It's one of my favorite requests.

--kyler