Busted ADIZ - What Now?

I haven't posted to this group for months so forgive me if this has been
discussed in other thread.

I'm looking for advice on how to respond to an FAA order suspending my
ticket. I've read and posted here for some time but I stopped after
last May. I respect the opinions of most in this group, so I'll check
with all of you before I make up my mind.

I clipped the DC ADIZ back in May. I was flying out of Frederick, MD
and meant to head for Harper's Ferry. I read the Potomac River wrong
and flew straight south into the ADIZ near Dulles before correcting to
the west. After I landed, the FBO staff informed me that the FAA wanted
to have a chat. I called them and, several days later, filed my report.

It was my second or third flight out of FDK. I'm new to Maryland and
only have 100 hours in my log book. I knew the rules of the ADIZ. I
basically failed to establish a correct heading after takeoff due to
stress and rusty skills; I froze, and kept blundering forward,
essentially lost for several minutes on a sunny day. The GPS was
different from what I was used to and I meant to practice VOR-only nav
that day. I felt pretty shook up for a few minutes but completed the
rest of the flight without problems.

So, I've got this letter presenting the order and several options. I
can appeal the order either formally or informally. I could have gotten
a waiver but that would have required a "timely" safety report to NASA,
which I didn't do. I (or an attorney on my behalf) can send in another
report, furthing explaining what happened. Or, I can simply surrender my
certificate.

The way I look at it, I simply screwed up and probably need remedial
training. But I can't train without a ticket. I don't see how I can
get around the penalty, since it's justified. Should I seek legal
counsel from AOPA? Doesn't seem worth the time to me.

I'm pretty discouraged and haven't been interested in flying ever since
I left the FBO that day. I did my homework before the flight, always
prided myself on knowing the rules of the system... but when it came
right down to it, I just didn't fly right. Now I'm wondering, as a
renter, when I'll ever be confident of my skills. Unless I continue
pursuing my IR (aborted last year when I moved) and really spend a lot
of time up there (and a lot of cash), what good is it? I'll just be a
sucky 20-hour-per-year pilot.

What would you do?

--Scott

Scott Lowrey wrote:

What would you do?

I assume from some comments you made that you're an AOPA member. I would get legal
advice from them. It may be that the cost of fighting the suspension is too high
(that's a decision for you to make), but you might be able to get it reduced. How
long is the suspension period?

This sort of situation is exactly why I signed up for AOPA's legal plan a few years
ago.

George Patterson
If you want to know God's opinion of money, just look at the people
he gives it to.

I would echo exactly what George posted. Call AOPA and discuss it with
them. They will know what your options are and what your chances are
with each.

I added the legal services option with my AOPA renewal, too. For
anyone who routinely flys around DC, NY or anyplace else where there
are oodles of needless flight restrictions (like near Seattle where I
live), I think the AOPA legal services option makes a OT of sense.

Good luck and don't let things keep you down.

In article 5L4Vc.38839$mD.35434@attbi_s02, Scott Lowrey
wrote:

I haven't posted to this group for months so forgive me if this has been
discussed in other thread.

I'm looking for advice on how to respond to an FAA order suspending my
ticket. I've read and posted here for some time but I stopped after
last May. I respect the opinions of most in this group, so I'll check
with all of you before I make up my mind.

I clipped the DC ADIZ back in May. I was flying out of Frederick, MD
and meant to head for Harper's Ferry. I read the Potomac River wrong
and flew straight south into the ADIZ near Dulles before correcting to
the west. After I landed, the FBO staff informed me that the FAA wanted
to have a chat. I called them and, several days later, filed my report.

It was my second or third flight out of FDK. I'm new to Maryland and
only have 100 hours in my log book. I knew the rules of the ADIZ. I
basically failed to establish a correct heading after takeoff due to
stress and rusty skills; I froze, and kept blundering forward,
essentially lost for several minutes on a sunny day. The GPS was
different from what I was used to and I meant to practice VOR-only nav
that day. I felt pretty shook up for a few minutes but completed the
rest of the flight without problems.

So, I've got this letter presenting the order and several options. I
can appeal the order either formally or informally. I could have gotten
a waiver but that would have required a "timely" safety report to NASA,
which I didn't do. I (or an attorney on my behalf) can send in another
report, furthing explaining what happened. Or, I can simply surrender my
certificate.

The way I look at it, I simply screwed up and probably need remedial
training. But I can't train without a ticket. I don't see how I can
get around the penalty, since it's justified. Should I seek legal
counsel from AOPA? Doesn't seem worth the time to me.

I'm pretty discouraged and haven't been interested in flying ever since
I left the FBO that day. I did my homework before the flight, always
prided myself on knowing the rules of the system... but when it came
right down to it, I just didn't fly right. Now I'm wondering, as a
renter, when I'll ever be confident of my skills. Unless I continue
pursuing my IR (aborted last year when I moved) and really spend a lot
of time up there (and a lot of cash), what good is it? I'll just be a
sucky 20-hour-per-year pilot.

What would you do?

--Scott

The way I look at it, I simply screwed up and probably need remedial
training. ... I don't see how I can get around the penalty, since it's
justified.

First of all, I respect you for admitting that you done wrong, and not
simply portraying yourself as a victim. That kind of attitude tells me that
you are the kind of guy that I want to share the sky with, unlike the
multitudes of butt-nuggets out there who think that the rules don't apply to
them.

I'm pretty discouraged and haven't been interested in flying ever since
I left the FBO that day. I did my homework before the flight, always
prided myself on knowing the rules of the system... but when it came
right down to it, I just didn't fly right.

You are seriously down on yourself. To some extent, that's admirable. You
are being brutally objective in evaluating both your behavior and your
skills. Again, that's a signal to me that you have the makings of a very
good pilot. But -- and this is just my opinion -- I think you may be taking
this self-criticism too far. You are new to the DC area. You are new to
flying. The rules you busted are relatively new and subject to change on a
frequent basis. That doesn't make it right to break them, but it does make
what you did a bit more understandable. As someone with just under 100
hours myself, I can completely understand how my own modest skills could go
completely pear-shaped in the same situation. I think anyone who has ever
flown can relate to what happened, especially if they think back to their
own skill level back when they had just 100 hours in their own logbooks.

Now I'm wondering, as a renter, when I'll ever be confident of my skills.
Unless I continue pursuing my IR (aborted last year when I moved) and
really spend a lot of time up there (and a lot of cash), what good is it?
I'll just be a sucky 20-hour-per-year pilot.

When I finished my checkride, I got a lot of people giving me the
age-old-cliche that the Private Pilot's certificate is a "license to learn".
You only get better by doing it more, and one of the ways that you learn is
by making a mistake now and again. Sure, you made a mistake, but I can tell
from what you have written that you have learned a great deal from what
happened. I can understand a crisis of confidence, but the only way to get
past that is to get up there and fly some more.

So, I've got this letter presenting the order and several options. I
can appeal the order either formally or informally.

What would you do?

Scott, you don't sound like you are willing to go through the trouble and
expense of a formal appeal, but what is involved in doing it informally? Do
you have a number you can call to ask what's involved in an informal appeal?
At the very least, I would call AOPA and ask them what's involved. Heck,
since you are right there in Fredrick, you could even walk in and ask them
about how these things work.

I don't know how uptight the FAA is about the ADIZ. Maybe it is hopeless,
but they would have to be pretty heartless and blind to ignore the fact that
you are simply a low-time pilot who made a mistake, and they surely couldn't
help but notice the fact that you have learned from your mistake.

In any event, I hope that you don't just simply give up and turn in your
certificate. You invested thousands of dollars and a huge chunk of time to
get it in the first place, and you really seem like the type of person who
we need more of in GA. You have a good head on your shoulders, you are
willing to listen and learn, and you aren't so egotistical that you think
the rules don't apply to you. I wish there were more people like that in
this industry. I can understand not wanting to make a formal proceeding out
of this situation, but I would at least try to use the informal route to
save my ticket and keep learning.

And don't lose your confidence. From what I can see, you are a good pilot,
Scott. I've never even met you, and I'd already fly with you.





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"Geoffrey Barnes" wrote in message
First of all, I respect you for admitting that you done wrong, and not
simply portraying yourself as a victim. That kind of attitude tells me that
you are the kind of guy that I want to share the sky with, unlike the
multitudes of butt-nuggets out there who think that the rules don't apply to
them.

Ditto. I'd be your wingman anyday, Scott.

For starters, don't believe everything here.

Next -- if you are a member of AOPA contact the legal dept.

If you are not a member of AOPA, find a good aviation lawyer
in your area.

Lastly -- stop talking about it in public. Talk to your
lawyer and only your lawyer.

harsh, but necessary.

Blanche writes:

Lastly -- stop talking about it in public. Talk to your
lawyer and only your lawyer.

But *please* summarize when you're done. Think of the next guy.

--kyler

Thanks, everyone, for responding -- including those who told me to shut
up and those who said, "Suck it up." For the most part, you've all
encouraged me to stop whining and get on with flying.

So, first let me respond to some of the advice I was given.

First, it *is* good advice to discuss these things only with an attorney
*if* you haven't already confessed in your report to the FAA. I
"confessed" in my initial report to the FAA because they asked me what
happened. I had no problem accepting responsibility and I still don't.
But, if there's a "next time", I might be a little wiser in my ways.

Second: file a NASA ASRS report at http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/
immediately. These reports, if filed within 10 days of the incident,
will get you an FAA waiver. No penalty -- the first time around. I
don't know if this applies to all types of incidents (doubt it) but it
*will* get you off the hook for an unauthorized ADIZ excursion.

Third: join the AOPA Legal Services plan now. It's worth $26 per year.
I joined after the incident, so I was only entitled to a free half
hour consultation with an AOPA-recommended attorney. If I end up
requiring the services of that attorney, I'll be paying $175 per hour
out-of-pocket. For me, however, the half hour consultation provided me
with enough education and advice to justify the 26 bucks. I doubt that
I'll have any problems going this one alone.

Now, I'll tell you what happened after I started getting responses to my
Usenet posting.

I called AOPA. I was quickly passed to the right people and provided
with the name of an attorney in my area. I left a message on his voice
mail. My main concern was one of time. The certified letter proposing
a 30-day suspension of my ticket was three weeks late in arriving. It
said I had to respond by August 21 or "default", meaning I'd accepted
the proposal and would be mailing in my shiny new certificate.

I decided to call the FAA to ask them about the date. I had no idea
where to start, so I simply called the Washington FSDO. These people
were *extremely* pleasant and helpful. The first person who answered
the phone got right to the point: where did you get this letter? Who
signed it?

When I mentioned the Regional Counsel's signature, she said, "OK, that's
over our heads - we're a district office within the Eastern Region.
Who was the safety inspector you sent your initial report to?" She was
not familiar with the name I gave.

"Tell you what. We've got an inspector here who has a lot of
experience. If anybody can tell you what to expect, he can." She
routed my call after I thanked her.

The man I spoke to next was candid and down to earth. "Don't worry
about the required response date. I can tell you right now, the FAA is
so backed up with these things that they're not going to care if you're
a day or two late." Sounds good, I said, but unless you give me that in
writing, I'm not going to relax. Should I call the Region?

"Not a good idea. You're probably not going to get anywhere with them.
But I tell you what. You've got five options to respond with, right?
Tell them you want an informal hearing. I've been to dozens of these
things. You can explain the situation again. They probably won't drop
the penalty but they'll cut it in half."

Sounded good to me. I thanked the inspector and waited for the lawyer
to call back.

The lawyer was a bit scary (do they learn those tactics in school?).
First, he wanted to know about the letters and my talk with the FSDO
people. "Don't worry about the date in the letter- you've got three
weeks from *the date you were served* - that's the law. The post office
recorded the date you picked up the letter." Phew. That was a relief.

He was alarmed that I had called the FAA. "Remember, you talk to me,
it's private and confidential. You talk to them, they can use anything
you say against you." I know. Christ, I'm not on trial for murder
here. He backed off a bit and told me that the FAA is definitely *not*
the enemy here. Those people are not at all pleased about supporting
multiple defense zones inside the country's borders.

Anyway, I told him about my conversation with the safety inspector and
he said, "Well, they gave you the exact same advice I would have.
Informal hearing is the way to go. Do it over the telephone. What did
you file in your initial report?"

I told him about my report. "Well, you've already confessed. But an
informal hearing will help you. What you really want is to get the
charge of 'reckless and dangerous operation' removed from the record."
I hadn't thought about that. In fact, I'd hardly noticed it in the
paperwork but there it was. I had endangered myself and the lives of
others by subjecting myself to possible military action.

So, I'm looking forward to my meeting with the FAA. Although I made a
mistake, I certainly don't think I was being careless or reckless. I
was disoriented, but I was flying the airplane. I don't believe for a
second that an interception would have resulted in a shoot-down,
therefore I can't accept the charge of endangerment. We'll see what
happens -- and whether or not I'll be calling that lawyer back!

I suppose by writing all of this, some of you will again admonish me for
providing details before the case is settled. That's fine and I
appreciate the warning. If this note comes back to bite me... well then
I'm a fool again. But it's a small enough event that it doesn't hurt to
let you know what the deal is.

What I really want to do know is get back in the saddle and get back up
there. Thanks for your support.

--Scott

"Scott Lowrey" wrote in message
news:YyaWc.24539$9d6.23195@attbi_s54...
I suppose by writing all of this, some of you will again admonish me for
providing details before the case is settled. That's fine and I
appreciate the warning. If this note comes back to bite me... well then
I'm a fool again. But it's a small enough event that it doesn't hurt to
let you know what the deal is.


You've spoken to AOPA, to a lawyer, and to the FAA and seem to be dealing
with this in a honest, straightforward manner. No admonishment from me,
quite the contrary, I appreciate your telling of your story as it is
valuable information to all of us as to how the system works in real life.

Peter

Scott,

Thanks for relating your experience. Please inform us of the
final outcome.

Joe Schneider
Cherokee 8437R

"Scott Lowrey" wrote in message
news:YyaWc.24539$9d6.23195@attbi_s54...
Thanks, everyone, for responding -- including those who told me to
shut
up and those who said, "Suck it up." For the most part, you've
all
encouraged me to stop whining and get on with flying.

So, first let me respond to some of the advice I was given.

First, it *is* good advice to discuss these things only with an
attorney
*if* you haven't already confessed in your report to the FAA. I
"confessed" in my initial report to the FAA because they asked me
what
happened. I had no problem accepting responsibility and I still
don't.
But, if there's a "next time", I might be a little wiser in my ways.

Second: file a NASA ASRS report at http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/
immediately. These reports, if filed within 10 days of the
incident,
will get you an FAA waiver. No penalty -- the first time around. I
don't know if this applies to all types of incidents (doubt it) but
it
*will* get you off the hook for an unauthorized ADIZ excursion.

Third: join the AOPA Legal Services plan now. It's worth $26 per
year.
I joined after the incident, so I was only entitled to a free half
hour consultation with an AOPA-recommended attorney. If I end up
requiring the services of that attorney, I'll be paying $175 per
hour
out-of-pocket. For me, however, the half hour consultation provided
me
with enough education and advice to justify the 26 bucks. I doubt
that
I'll have any problems going this one alone.

Now, I'll tell you what happened after I started getting responses
to my
Usenet posting.

I called AOPA. I was quickly passed to the right people and
provided
with the name of an attorney in my area. I left a message on his
voice
mail. My main concern was one of time. The certified letter
proposing
a 30-day suspension of my ticket was three weeks late in arriving.
It
said I had to respond by August 21 or "default", meaning I'd
accepted
the proposal and would be mailing in my shiny new certificate.

I decided to call the FAA to ask them about the date. I had no idea
where to start, so I simply called the Washington FSDO. These
people
were *extremely* pleasant and helpful. The first person who
answered
the phone got right to the point: where did you get this letter?
Who
signed it?

When I mentioned the Regional Counsel's signature, she said, "OK,
that's
over our heads - we're a district office within the Eastern
Region.
Who was the safety inspector you sent your initial report to?" She
was
not familiar with the name I gave.

"Tell you what. We've got an inspector here who has a lot of
experience. If anybody can tell you what to expect, he can." She
routed my call after I thanked her.

The man I spoke to next was candid and down to earth. "Don't worry
about the required response date. I can tell you right now, the FAA
is
so backed up with these things that they're not going to care if
you're
a day or two late." Sounds good, I said, but unless you give me
that in
writing, I'm not going to relax. Should I call the Region?

"Not a good idea. You're probably not going to get anywhere with
them.
But I tell you what. You've got five options to respond with,
right?
Tell them you want an informal hearing. I've been to dozens of
these
things. You can explain the situation again. They probably won't
drop
the penalty but they'll cut it in half."

Sounded good to me. I thanked the inspector and waited for the
lawyer
to call back.

The lawyer was a bit scary (do they learn those tactics in school?).
First, he wanted to know about the letters and my talk with the FSDO
people. "Don't worry about the date in the letter- you've got three
weeks from *the date you were served* - that's the law. The post
office
recorded the date you picked up the letter." Phew. That was a
relief.

He was alarmed that I had called the FAA. "Remember, you talk to
me,
it's private and confidential. You talk to them, they can use
anything
you say against you." I know. Christ, I'm not on trial for murder
here. He backed off a bit and told me that the FAA is definitely
*not*
the enemy here. Those people are not at all pleased about
supporting
multiple defense zones inside the country's borders.

Anyway, I told him about my conversation with the safety inspector
and
he said, "Well, they gave you the exact same advice I would have.
Informal hearing is the way to go. Do it over the telephone. What
did
you file in your initial report?"

I told him about my report. "Well, you've already confessed. But
an
informal hearing will help you. What you really want is to get the
charge of 'reckless and dangerous operation' removed from the
record."
I hadn't thought about that. In fact, I'd hardly noticed it in the
paperwork but there it was. I had endangered myself and the lives
of
others by subjecting myself to possible military action.

So, I'm looking forward to my meeting with the FAA. Although I made
a
mistake, I certainly don't think I was being careless or reckless.
I
was disoriented, but I was flying the airplane. I don't believe for
a
second that an interception would have resulted in a shoot-down,
therefore I can't accept the charge of endangerment. We'll see what
happens -- and whether or not I'll be calling that lawyer back!

I suppose by writing all of this, some of you will again admonish me
for
providing details before the case is settled. That's fine and I
appreciate the warning. If this note comes back to bite me... well
then
I'm a fool again. But it's a small enough event that it doesn't
hurt to
let you know what the deal is.

What I really want to do know is get back in the saddle and get back
up
there. Thanks for your support.

--Scott