Tailwheel Crosswind Landing

I am a long term lurker and have a question regarding landing tailwheel
airplanes in a crosswind. I have about 250 hours in a Piper PA-12 Super
Cruiser. The other day during a very routine crosswind landing I
started heading for the weeds faster than I new what to do.

I had a fairly gentle cross wind from the left. I had cancelled out all
sideways drift by lowering my left wing and aligned the plane with the
runway with right rudder. At touchdown, everything seemed perfect. That
is when all hell broke loose. As soon as I touched down, I started a
very fast turn to the right. At one point I was headed right between
two runway light. As I was deciding that "between" was not a bad place
to be, I finally managed to straighten everything out and managed to
stay on the runway.

In talking to my mechanic as soon as I touched down (I was sure there
was a mechanical problem), he figured that with all of the right rudder
needed to keep things straight, that my tailwheel just sent me to the
right once it touched down.

My question is, what was really going on here? Should my tailwheel
have released (castored) when I touched down? Your thoughts are greatly
appreciated.

Thanks.

Tom

wrote in message
...
I am a long term lurker and have a question regarding landing tailwheel
airplanes in a crosswind. I have about 250 hours in a Piper PA-12 Super
Cruiser. The other day during a very routine crosswind landing I
started heading for the weeds faster than I new what to do.

[...]
In talking to my mechanic as soon as I touched down (I was sure there
was a mechanical problem), he figured that with all of the right rudder
needed to keep things straight, that my tailwheel just sent me to the
right once it touched down.

My question is, what was really going on here? Should my tailwheel
have released (castored) when I touched down? Your thoughts are greatly
appreciated.

Thanks.

Tom

I had that happen to me recently in a Taylorcraft and thankfully I straddled
the runway lights and had enough width on the runway to get her tracking
straight again. It must have been a gust or windshear, only thing I can
figure. Maule tailwheel will break free and swivel when it takes a
notion, but it has always behaved when planted on the runway at landing
time. It doesn't lock per se but does have something of a detent. I had
the wing down into the crosswind just like the seagulls do, but somehow as
soon as we touched down the wind turned us. It was the closest thing to a
ground-loop I ever had. If I had it to do over again I would have done a
wheel landing, or a go-around.

If I remember right, (and that would be a minor miracle :-)the Cruiser
came with a free castoring tailwheel I think, but it's been a long time
:-)) Do you have a Scott or a Maule on the airplane, or the original
tailwheel?

If it's the original, with your experience and the wind you are
describing, it sounds very much like a hung up tailwheel spring that
kinked out on you then released as the full weight of the airplane
centered in the "new direction". It's really hard to tell, and the
answer would be in your memory on how the pedals felt at the exact
instant the airplane swerved to the right. If you think back, did the
pedal LEAD your foot, and did the airplane swerve at the exact instant
the tail contacted the runway? This would be a clue if you could
remember that!
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
for email; take out the trash




wrote in message
...
I am a long term lurker and have a question regarding landing tailwheel
airplanes in a crosswind. I have about 250 hours in a Piper PA-12
Super
Cruiser. The other day during a very routine crosswind landing I
started heading for the weeds faster than I new what to do.

I had a fairly gentle cross wind from the left. I had cancelled out
all
sideways drift by lowering my left wing and aligned the plane with the
runway with right rudder. At touchdown, everything seemed perfect.
That
is when all hell broke loose. As soon as I touched down, I started a
very fast turn to the right. At one point I was headed right between
two runway light. As I was deciding that "between" was not a bad
place
to be, I finally managed to straighten everything out and managed to
stay on the runway.

In talking to my mechanic as soon as I touched down (I was sure there
was a mechanical problem), he figured that with all of the right
rudder
needed to keep things straight, that my tailwheel just sent me to the
right once it touched down.

My question is, what was really going on here? Should my tailwheel
have released (castored) when I touched down? Your thoughts are
greatly
appreciated.

Thanks.

Tom

Wheel landing or full-stall?
How wide was the runway?
Did you keep the rudder and aileron in or relax and neutralize the
controls once the wheels were on?
Did you suck the stick full back into your gut?
If you don't pull it all the way, you don't get enough pressure on the
tailwheel.

wrote:
I am a long term lurker and have a question regarding landing tailwheel
airplanes in a crosswind. I have about 250 hours in a Piper PA-12 Super
Cruiser. The other day during a very routine crosswind landing I
started heading for the weeds faster than I new what to do.

I had a fairly gentle cross wind from the left. I had cancelled out all
sideways drift by lowering my left wing and aligned the plane with the
runway with right rudder. At touchdown, everything seemed perfect. That
is when all hell broke loose. As soon as I touched down, I started a
very fast turn to the right. At one point I was headed right between
two runway light. As I was deciding that "between" was not a bad place
to be, I finally managed to straighten everything out and managed to
stay on the runway.

In talking to my mechanic as soon as I touched down (I was sure there
was a mechanical problem), he figured that with all of the right rudder
needed to keep things straight, that my tailwheel just sent me to the
right once it touched down.

My question is, what was really going on here? Should my tailwheel
have released (castored) when I touched down? Your thoughts are greatly
appreciated.

Thanks.

Tom

wrote in message
...

snip good story

I've got about 1000 hours towing banners in PA-12's Great airplanes, does
yours have the O-320 conversion? I've always wondered how one would
perform with the big engine, and all the fairings that we left off ours :-)

Back to your question, I've had the same thing happen a couple of times on
landing. It was with a Scott tailwheel, and twice it was because the
steering springs had broken, leaving me with steering in only one direction
(the direction I WASN'T going) Though, I can remember a few times where,
not because of a crosswind (we had 75' trees on either side of our field,
right up to the runway, hence, no real crosswind) but because of a rutted
field, I caught enough of a sideload on the gear to break the tailwheel
loose to caster. Just rolling along, feeding in a little right rudder, then
BAM! Hard to the left.

Get's your attention in a hurry, that's for sure! About the only thing you
can try to do is straighten out with brake (if you're lucky enough to have
good ones; ours didn't) or give it a shot of power, and forward stick to try
and get the tail up and use the rudder to straighten out. Or, if you don't
have room, stomp on the inside brake and rudder and ground loop her before
hitting the treeline that defines the edge of the runway.

Great airplanes though; deadheading ours with the O-320 and a 74" cruise
prop, I could get about 90 mph at 2200 rpm. That's with no door, windows,
no wheel pants and no fabric over the gear. No cowling, and none of the
fairings at the strut attach points or covering the trim jackscrew.

I was hoping to get an answer from Dudley. Our plane has a Scott
tailwheel. When you talk about a hung up tailwheel spring, are you
talking about the small spring internal to the tailwheel. Should the
tailwheel release in such a situation?

As to your question regarding if the tailwheel "lead" my foot, I think
it may have. I was actually a little confused, when I think back, as to
what was going on with my feet! Not that there was any time to think
when it happened. Not sure if the swerve happened the exact instance the
tailwheel touched, but I think that is a good possibility.

Tom

In article et,
says...
If I remember right, (and that would be a minor miracle :-)the Cruiser
came with a free castoring tailwheel I think, but it's been a long time
:-)) Do you have a Scott or a Maule on the airplane, or the original
tailwheel?

If it's the original, with your experience and the wind you are
describing, it sounds very much like a hung up tailwheel spring that
kinked out on you then released as the full weight of the airplane
centered in the "new direction". It's really hard to tell, and the
answer would be in your memory on how the pedals felt at the exact
instant the airplane swerved to the right. If you think back, did the
pedal LEAD your foot, and did the airplane swerve at the exact instant
the tail contacted the runway? This would be a clue if you could
remember that!
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
for email; take out the trash

In article ,
says...
wrote in message
...

snip good story

I've got about 1000 hours towing banners in PA-12's Great airplanes, does
yours have the O-320 conversion? I've always wondered how one would
perform with the big engine, and all the fairings that we left off ours :-)


Ours is pretty stock. Just put a new O-235-C1, 108 hp. Can cruise at
110 mph with not problem. I did my private in this plane and have all
but about 5 hours of my 250 hours in it. I also have about 100 hours in
gliders.

In article ,
says...
Wheel landing or full-stall?
How wide was the runway?
Did you keep the rudder and aileron in or relax and neutralize the
controls once the wheels were on?
Did you suck the stick full back into your gut?
If you don't pull it all the way, you don't get enough pressure on the
tailwheel.


Landing was three point.
It was a big wide runway, 75 x 3500. Sussex, NJ (FWN)
Hard to recall, but I was probably not relaxed enough.
The stick probably could have been back further.

I hesitate to try and get too specific with this because it's been so
long ago for me :-). I seem to remember we had a Scott 3200 tailwheel on
one of our line PA18's and it always functioned perfectly.
Did you try putting the tail up on a stand braced at the spring attach
points, then have someone check the tailwheel angle against the rudder
displacement as you work the pedals?.
I'd simply have the nearest A&P check it out. My system for these things
was to check them out backwards. I'd check everything to see if it was
working as it should, and if something didn't look right at that point,
I'd have the guys check it over. :-)
One thing flying wise, if you were holding in right rudder at contact,
the tailwheel would have been cocked right. If you were holding in that
rudder and came down solid on the tail at ground contact, it could have
temporarily jammed it right on you. I've seen this happen a few times.
Just a thought.
Good luck. I'm sure it's no biggie, but have it checked out anyway.
Dudley
wrote in message
...
I was hoping to get an answer from Dudley. Our plane has a Scott
tailwheel. When you talk about a hung up tailwheel spring, are you
talking about the small spring internal to the tailwheel. Should the
tailwheel release in such a situation?

As to your question regarding if the tailwheel "lead" my foot, I think
it may have. I was actually a little confused, when I think back, as
to
what was going on with my feet! Not that there was any time to think
when it happened. Not sure if the swerve happened the exact instance
the
tailwheel touched, but I think that is a good possibility.

Tom

In article et,
says...
If I remember right, (and that would be a minor miracle :-)the
Cruiser
came with a free castoring tailwheel I think, but it's been a long
time
:-)) Do you have a Scott or a Maule on the airplane, or the original
tailwheel?

If it's the original, with your experience and the wind you are
describing, it sounds very much like a hung up tailwheel spring that
kinked out on you then released as the full weight of the airplane
centered in the "new direction". It's really hard to tell, and the
answer would be in your memory on how the pedals felt at the exact
instant the airplane swerved to the right. If you think back, did the
pedal LEAD your foot, and did the airplane swerve at the exact
instant
the tail contacted the runway? This would be a clue if you could
remember that!
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
for email; take out the trash

wrote in message m...
I had a fairly gentle cross wind from the left. I had cancelled out all
sideways drift by lowering my left wing and aligned the plane with the
runway with right rudder. At touchdown, everything seemed perfect. That
is when all hell broke loose. As soon as I touched down, I started a
very fast turn to the right. At one point I was headed right between
two runway light. As I was deciding that "between" was not a bad place
to be, I finally managed to straighten everything out and managed to
stay on the runway.

It sounds a lot like what happened to a friend of mine in his Maule
M6-235 with a Scott 3200 tailwheel. He landed after a steep slip to
lose altitude and the airplane cut right and ran off the runway
almost immediately. He figured he screwed up but then it happened
again just like that a week later when he was slipping because of a
crosswind. It turned out to be a broken part inside the tailwheel
that caused it to turn with the rudder but not return when the rudder
was centered. It was the tailwheel, not the pilot. I'm sorry but I
don't know enough about it to be more specific than that.