flying with different instructors

Chief flight instructor and my primary instructor are both gone for the
week, so I've been flying with whatever low-time, newly-minted Cessna-jockey
greenhorn flight instructor that answers the phone when I call to schedule.
I've flown with four different instructors in the last two weeks.

I wholeheartedly recommend this. Each instructor has his own way of
explaining and demonstrating things, (working on complex rating and
commercial, part 141) as well as slight variations of technique and
procedure. The result is that I've been able to choose the methods which
work best and with which I'm most comfortable, AND check these things
against other instructors to make sure it's right.

The newer guys have a great sense of enthusiasm, and since the boss is out
of the shop, they've got great information about what it's REALLY like
flying as a CFI out of that FBO and things like, how many hours one might
expect to accumulate over the summer flying season.

I've had one instructor who's a Major in the Air Force and learned at the
academy, one who is a retired Marine and learned in the '60s, one who is an
Embry Riddle graduate and one who earned his CFI wings from two of the
others and has only been instructing for a year. The four different
perspectives have made every flight not just practice, but a new learning
experience. My primary instructor is excellent, but I wish I'd have been
doing this to some degree all along!

-c

As a CFI, I think that this can work for advanced instruction
(Instrument, Commercial, and above), but I think it is generally quite
a bad idea for primary students.

The very thing you seem to like about it ("The result is that I've been
able to choose the methods which work best...") can be a major problem
with primary students. By the time you get to the Commercial-student
level, you are a fairly accomplished aviator. You likely feel quite at
home in an airplane, and definionally have hundreds of hours in an
airplane.

Try to think back to when you were a 15-hour primary student. The stuff
that we take for granted is often a major difficulty. It was for me. I
remember being a 15-hour students and trying to remember all the stuff
you had to do before landing, and sometimes looking up and feeling
completely baffled. I know I'm not alone in this.

When I work with primary students, I generally try to teach them one
coherent way of doing things. "Downwind- power to 2000 RPM, abeam the
touchdown point, power to 1500 RPM, pitch for 80 knots. When TD point
is 45 degrees behind, turn base, one notch flaps...pitch for 80....". I
have had students who have flown with different CFIs while I was
working with them. These other CFIs (one was a CFI in training) are
certainly very competent pilots and likely skilled instructors.
However,they do things differently...they teach things differently. And
what seems to often happen is that instead of focusing on the task at
hand and using a technique they know and have learned to trust, noow
the student is thinking "Was it 1500 RPM? No....that was Dave. Jeff
likes power all the way out...wait...."

When I start work with a primary student, I structure my syllabus and
training program to lead from one concept and maneuver naturally to
another...I envision the entire training process that I expect to
perform with that student. I know what each student I have knows...and
what he doesn. I know what he is good at, and what he isn't. And I can
use these things to help him become a better pilot. I think that
continuity is very important...and having multiple CFIs gets in the way
of that.

By the time you are working on your CFI or your commercial, you pretty
much already know how to fly...you are perfecting and advancing your
technique...but you already know how to do all the basics. I think that
it is probably reasonable to work with different CFIs at that level.
but not when you're starting out.

Cheers,


Cap




gatt wrote:
Chief flight instructor and my primary instructor are both gone for
the
week, so I've been flying with whatever low-time, newly-minted
Cessna-jockey
greenhorn flight instructor that answers the phone when I call to
schedule.
I've flown with four different instructors in the last two weeks.

I wholeheartedly recommend this. Each instructor has his own way of
explaining and demonstrating things, (working on complex rating and
commercial, part 141) as well as slight variations of technique and
procedure. The result is that I've been able to choose the methods
which
work best and with which I'm most comfortable, AND check these things
against other instructors to make sure it's right.

The newer guys have a great sense of enthusiasm, and since the boss
is out
of the shop, they've got great information about what it's REALLY
like
flying as a CFI out of that FBO and things like, how many hours one
might
expect to accumulate over the summer flying season.

I've had one instructor who's a Major in the Air Force and learned at
the
academy, one who is a retired Marine and learned in the '60s, one who
is an
Embry Riddle graduate and one who earned his CFI wings from two of
the
others and has only been instructing for a year. The four different
perspectives have made every flight not just practice, but a new
learning
experience. My primary instructor is excellent, but I wish I'd have
been
doing this to some degree all along!

-c

wrote:

As a CFI, I think that this can work for advanced instruction
(Instrument, Commercial, and above), but I think it is generally quite
a bad idea for primary students.
....
When I work with primary students, I generally try to teach them one
coherent way of doing things. "Downwind- power to 2000 RPM, abeam the
touchdown point, power to 1500 RPM, pitch for 80 knots. When TD point
....

When I've learnt to fly, I had several instructors from day one.
Speaking strictly for myself, I loved that. Every instructor told some
different rules. Comparing them, I found out very quickly what the
reason was behind those rules, and not surprisingly, all those different
rules boilt down essentially to the same. I preferred this a lot over
learning a rule by heart without really understanding it.

Stefan

If your student mistakenly sets the power at 1700 instead of 1800, I hope
you don't get on his case and develop in him a case of
head-in-the-cockpit-itis. I'd rather have the student remember the position
of the tach needle relative to straight up (one o'clock, two o'clock, etc)
and let it go at that. Precise power setting ain't all that important, yet
some students will devote ten long seconds to massaging the tach to get an
exact number because that's what their instructor told them (if you think
ten seconds is a short time, I will gladly stick my finger in your eye and
hold it there for....heck, two seconds be enough to make my point?).

Bob Gardner

wrote in message
oups.com...
As a CFI, I think that this can work for advanced instruction
(Instrument, Commercial, and above), but I think it is generally quite
a bad idea for primary students.

The very thing you seem to like about it ("The result is that I've been
able to choose the methods which work best...") can be a major problem
with primary students. By the time you get to the Commercial-student
level, you are a fairly accomplished aviator. You likely feel quite at
home in an airplane, and definionally have hundreds of hours in an
airplane.

Try to think back to when you were a 15-hour primary student. The stuff
that we take for granted is often a major difficulty. It was for me. I
remember being a 15-hour students and trying to remember all the stuff
you had to do before landing, and sometimes looking up and feeling
completely baffled. I know I'm not alone in this.

When I work with primary students, I generally try to teach them one
coherent way of doing things. "Downwind- power to 2000 RPM, abeam the
touchdown point, power to 1500 RPM, pitch for 80 knots. When TD point
is 45 degrees behind, turn base, one notch flaps...pitch for 80....". I
have had students who have flown with different CFIs while I was
working with them. These other CFIs (one was a CFI in training) are
certainly very competent pilots and likely skilled instructors.
However,they do things differently...they teach things differently. And
what seems to often happen is that instead of focusing on the task at
hand and using a technique they know and have learned to trust, noow
the student is thinking "Was it 1500 RPM? No....that was Dave. Jeff
likes power all the way out...wait...."

When I start work with a primary student, I structure my syllabus and
training program to lead from one concept and maneuver naturally to
another...I envision the entire training process that I expect to
perform with that student. I know what each student I have knows...and
what he doesn. I know what he is good at, and what he isn't. And I can
use these things to help him become a better pilot. I think that
continuity is very important...and having multiple CFIs gets in the way
of that.

By the time you are working on your CFI or your commercial, you pretty
much already know how to fly...you are perfecting and advancing your
technique...but you already know how to do all the basics. I think that
it is probably reasonable to work with different CFIs at that level.
but not when you're starting out.

Cheers,


Cap




gatt wrote:
Chief flight instructor and my primary instructor are both gone for
the
week, so I've been flying with whatever low-time, newly-minted
Cessna-jockey
greenhorn flight instructor that answers the phone when I call to
schedule.
I've flown with four different instructors in the last two weeks.

I wholeheartedly recommend this. Each instructor has his own way of
explaining and demonstrating things, (working on complex rating and
commercial, part 141) as well as slight variations of technique and
procedure. The result is that I've been able to choose the methods
which
work best and with which I'm most comfortable, AND check these things
against other instructors to make sure it's right.

The newer guys have a great sense of enthusiasm, and since the boss
is out
of the shop, they've got great information about what it's REALLY
like
flying as a CFI out of that FBO and things like, how many hours one
might
expect to accumulate over the summer flying season.

I've had one instructor who's a Major in the Air Force and learned at
the
academy, one who is a retired Marine and learned in the '60s, one who
is an
Embry Riddle graduate and one who earned his CFI wings from two of
the
others and has only been instructing for a year. The four different
perspectives have made every flight not just practice, but a new
learning
experience. My primary instructor is excellent, but I wish I'd have
been
doing this to some degree all along!

-c

On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 21:53:26 +0100, Stefan
wrote:

wrote:

As a CFI, I think that this can work for advanced instruction
(Instrument, Commercial, and above), but I think it is generally quite
a bad idea for primary students.
...
When I work with primary students, I generally try to teach them one
coherent way of doing things. "Downwind- power to 2000 RPM, abeam the
touchdown point, power to 1500 RPM, pitch for 80 knots. When TD point
...

When I've learnt to fly, I had several instructors from day one.
Speaking strictly for myself, I loved that. Every instructor told some
different rules. Comparing them, I found out very quickly what the
reason was behind those rules, and not surprisingly, all those different
rules boilt down essentially to the same. I preferred this a lot over
learning a rule by heart without really understanding it.


Likewise I had several instructors throughout my primary training.
They did communicate and coordinate, still I had to prove to each what
the other said.

It's been a while, but I do remember being taught the stabilized
pattern and then moving on to more flexible/varied patterns.

In my situation, I was glad for the multiple instructors.
OTOH I don't think it's something that would work well for all
students.

Stefan
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

you can leave your finger where it is, thank you. as a recent graduate
from airplane kindergarten to first grade, i've got really fresh
experience. overall, i think having one MAIN instructor thru to the
checkride is probably best but going up with someone else once in a
while is really beneficial too. i know a lot of schools have the chief
pilot or whatever do a ride every once in a while and usually before
solo or checkride. just try to stay away from the guy who thinks you're
not a student but a voice operated autopilot.

dan

I'm sure you have your own opinions on this, but FWIW to anyone else
reading my answer, I have never been an advocate of multiple instructors
during primary training, ESPECIALLY before solo. I'm sure there are
those who have had multiple CFI's during the period I don't advocate
them, but I simply don't recommend it, and never have.
I do however see distinct advantages to multiple instructors during
training for advanced ratings.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/CFI Retired
for email; take out the trash

"gatt" wrote in message
...

Chief flight instructor and my primary instructor are both gone for
the
week, so I've been flying with whatever low-time, newly-minted
Cessna-jockey
greenhorn flight instructor that answers the phone when I call to
schedule.
I've flown with four different instructors in the last two weeks.

I wholeheartedly recommend this. Each instructor has his own way of
explaining and demonstrating things, (working on complex rating and
commercial, part 141) as well as slight variations of technique and
procedure. The result is that I've been able to choose the methods
which
work best and with which I'm most comfortable, AND check these things
against other instructors to make sure it's right.

The newer guys have a great sense of enthusiasm, and since the boss is
out
of the shop, they've got great information about what it's REALLY like
flying as a CFI out of that FBO and things like, how many hours one
might
expect to accumulate over the summer flying season.

I've had one instructor who's a Major in the Air Force and learned at
the
academy, one who is a retired Marine and learned in the '60s, one who
is an
Embry Riddle graduate and one who earned his CFI wings from two of the
others and has only been instructing for a year. The four different
perspectives have made every flight not just practice, but a new
learning
experience. My primary instructor is excellent, but I wish I'd have
been
doing this to some degree all along!

-c

I went through a string of instructors on my way to my
license - mostly through no fault of my own. People came
and went, plus I moved about mid-way. My first (and the
best, in my opinion) was an old bomber pilot, and owned
the FBO. Then he started an airline, and had no time (was
chief pilot, too). One was a petty tyrant. Needless to say,
I didn't schedule with him again. I've found instructors
to be good, bad, indifferent - and rarely, really good.
This is true in all disciplines - not just aviation.

I'd say go ahead and fly with several - and see what the
differences are. Ask around to find out what others think
about the available instructors. Then when you find one
who is really good (and this will be quite obvious), hang
onto him or her. This likely will be hard to do - such
people are usually on their way to bigger and better things.

IMHO the ideal instructor is an old timer who has seen and
done it all, isn't going anywhere, and does it because he
or she loves it.

David Johnson

Dudley
We agree again g. I recently finished a student who is a rarity in
that I have been his only instructor. He committed to hit it hard and
steady and he passed his PP check ride with a total of 41.3 hours when
he walked in to take it. He flew 3 times a week, got a 98 on his
written and the DE said he was a delight to fly with and no weak areas
except in maintenance paperwork. Was fuzzy on AD vs service bulletin vs
regular entries in the logbooks. He took roughly 3 months with a few
weather interruptions like Hurricane Ivan, and spent just under $5000
all inclusive with headset and other pilot tools.
He is the first student I have had "captive" in many years. As a Chief
Instructor at a number of schools, nearly all the students had been
exposed to a variety of instructors and I did phase checks as well as
standardization rides for my CFI's.
I have often recommended a student fly with another CFI to see if there
was an area or presentation that was better for that student. Sometimes
it was just personality that made a difference. My own style is pretty
relaxed, low key, and demanding as hell. I have high standards of
performance for those I choose to fly with or give instruction to and
am relentless in demanding they meet those standards.
But, as you know, I am one of those pilots who has been everywhere and
done nearly everything of interest to guys like us.
Best personal regards and best wishes for a successful and healthy New
Year to all.
Ol Shy & Bashful

Bob Gardner wrote:
If your student mistakenly sets the power at 1700 instead of 1800, I
hope
you don't get on his case and develop in him a case of
head-in-the-cockpit-itis. I'd rather have the student remember the
position
of the tach needle relative to straight up (one o'clock, two o'clock,
etc)
and let it go at that. Precise power setting ain't all that
important, yet
some students will devote ten long seconds to massaging the tach to
get an
exact number because that's what their instructor told them (if you
think
ten seconds is a short time, I will gladly stick my finger in your
eye and
hold it there for....heck, two seconds be enough to make my point?).

Bob Gardner


Nah. I generally avoid 'getting on his case' about anything if I can
avoid it; generally there are better ways of fixing problems. And I am
generally less of a fan of the FAAs emphasis on 'integrated
instruction' for primary students than many other CFIs seem to be. If a
VFR student is looking inside the cockpit for *anything* for 10 seconds
at a time (power control or anything else) then we've got something we
need to work on (generally).

What I try to teach are 'rules of thumb' that the student can use so
that he *can* focus outside on the task at hand. 2000 RPM on the
downwind isn't really going to be much different from 1900 or 2100. But
2000 RPM generally produces the speed that works well on downwind (with
the correct pitch), and is easy to remember. I like things that are
easy to remember; things that 'come back to you' when you need it. Just
as much as I think teaching precise v-speeds is really
counterproductive (of course most DEs ask for the 'precise' speeds')
because in a situation where the v-speed is important (Vg in an engine
out, Vy after takeoff, Vref down the pipe) there are usually much more
important things to be focused on. If my student's engine croaks, I
really don't want him worrying about whether Vg was 87 knots, or 84.

Which goes back to my teaching philosophy and why I prefer students to
fly with only me as a CFI during their primary training. I have decided
upon upon Einstein's Dictum ("Everything should be as simple as
possible, but no simpler") as a major component of primary training.
For instance, while I teach students the various necessary speeds, I
teach an additional 'critical speed' that seems to exist for most light
training planes. This speed (while different for each kind of plane) is
an easily memorable speed that can be used as a 'multipurpose' speed if
a student can't remember a speed or has a situation arise where he
needs to focus elsewhere for a while. In the Cessna 172N, I teach
students that the 'critical speed' is 65 knots. You can use this speed
for climb (it's halfway between Vx and Vy), you can use it for
approach, both flaps up and down, you can use it for best glide...and
remembering this one speed *might* help in an emergency...just pitch it
for 65 knots, regardless of what you are doing. Simple...easy to
remember, and it works.

But I know other CFIs who are *very* focused on speed control. If you
aren't at Vy on climbout, you're wrong. That's a reasonable
approach...teaching that as a method of flight discipline from the very
beginning, but it isn't very compatible with my training philosophy.

As I have said, at the higher levels, it is probably fine to use more
than one CFI. But primary training (IMO) is qualitatively different,
and I strongly advise my students to do as *I* teach them. It's fine
to fly with other pilots if they want, but when they are taking
instruction, I'd really prefer it if they only take it from me. or from
somebody else. But not both.

Cheers,

Cap