IFR in the 1930's

Let me change that from "any thoughts" to "any helpful" thoughts G.


"Dick" wrote in message
m...
Staring at my empty instrument panel while considering which instruments
and
their placement, I got wondering how old time Mail pilots flew if caught
in
IFR conditions.

On my project plane, I'm considering just a airspeed/altitude/ ball & tube
slip (no needle) indicator/compass setup in order to avoid the venturi or
vacuum pump setup. Since I consider "electric" too expensive and wondered
whether a dome style compass might be the key??

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks, Dick -Lakeland, Florida

Dick,

The first instrument flight was made 1919 by Jim Doolittle, with no
visibility at all. Good reading is the "I could never be so lucky again"
and also "The Spirit of ST Louis" (1953) The last one tells a lot about how
it was to be a mail pilot in the 20's

Jan Carlsson
www.jcpropellerdesign.com

"Dick" skrev i meddelandet
m...
Staring at my empty instrument panel while considering which instruments
and
their placement, I got wondering how old time Mail pilots flew if caught
in
IFR conditions.

On my project plane, I'm considering just a airspeed/altitude/ ball & tube
slip (no needle) indicator/compass setup in order to avoid the venturi or
vacuum pump setup. Since I consider "electric" too expensive and wondered
whether a dome style compass might be the key??

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks, Dick -Lakeland, Florida

In article , Jan Carlsson wrote:

Good reading is the "I could never be so lucky again"
and also "The Spirit of ST Louis" (1953) The last one tells a lot about how
it was to be a mail pilot in the 20's

_The Spirit of St. Louis_ is one of those books all pilots should read
(because they'll probably like them), like _Fate is the Hunter_. If I
recall correctly, Lindberg talks about getting caught over a deck
and letting the plane find its own way down while he walks. I think
*that's* how the mail pilots handled hard IFR. (If it's really in a
different book, it still doesn't change the recommendation to read
it!).

Mike

"Dick" writes:

Let me change that from "any thoughts" to "any helpful" thoughts G.

In his AvWeb piece on scud-running, Rick Durden mentions that the mail
pilots in the 1920's just kept flying lower until they could see the
ground, even if that meant skimming the tree-tops:

http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182679-1.html

By the 1930's, I imagine, some of them had gyroscopic instruments.
Perhaps Rick can point us to online references.


All the best,


David

Dick,

Since you indicated you did not wish to use a venturi, one alternative
that had been used in the 20-30s for sufficient vacuum/flowrate to reliably
operate a Turn and Bank is to tap off your motor's intake spider downstream
of the carb (on a Continental, you could use one of the pre-threaded primer
fitting holes). What you do is start with a fitting a small hole (~#40 or
so) and, by a series of iterative enlargements, adjust until the level of
desired vacuum was reached at cruise power. This is similar to the standby
vacuum systems now sold for modern aircraft but, as the old vacuum T&Bs
needed less vacuum levels/airflow, one would normally have sufficient vacuum
throughout most flight regimes.

Just a thought.

Mike Bednarek


"Dick" wrote in message
m...
Staring at my empty instrument panel while considering which instruments
and
their placement, I got wondering how old time Mail pilots flew if caught
in
IFR conditions.

On my project plane, I'm considering just a airspeed/altitude/ ball & tube
slip (no needle) indicator/compass setup in order to avoid the venturi or
vacuum pump setup. Since I consider "electric" too expensive and wondered
whether a dome style compass might be the key??

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks, Dick -Lakeland, Florida

Dick wrote:

Staring at my empty instrument panel while considering which instruments and
their placement, I got wondering how old time Mail pilots flew if caught in
IFR conditions.

By the 30's, the mail was going by airlines. I assume you mean the old open
cockpit planes of the 20's (like the Pitcairn Mailwing or the earlier Jennie).
A skilled pilot can keep one straight and level by the feel of the relative
wind on his cheeks and the sound of the wind in the wires, combined with the
ball and altimeter. This still isn't as good as a gyro stack, and the accident
rate was high. Lots of the pilots simply put the mail on the train if things
got too bad.

Lindberg discusses some of this in one of his books, and Gann has at least two
novels about the period. I've also read an old book by a veteran mail pilot,
but I have no idea any more what the title was (I checked it out from either
the Knoxville public library or the Bearden High School library in the 60's).

George Patterson
Brute force has an elegance all its own.

"G.R. Patterson III" writes:

A skilled pilot can keep one straight and level by the feel of the
relative wind on his cheeks and the sound of the wind in the wires,
combined with the ball and altimeter.

I'm not too sure about the first two -- if relative wind told you
anything at all about whether the wings were level, we be able to use
something simpler than gyroscopic instruments for IFR today. It you
take the last two, ball and altimeter, and add the magnetic compass,
then it would be at least theoretically possible to fly straight
(-ish) and level (-ish) in IMC, though they probably just flew very
close to the ground, as Durden's article suggested.


All the best,


David

On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 18:28:43 -0400, "G.R. Patterson III"
wrote:



Dick wrote:

Staring at my empty instrument panel while considering which instruments and
their placement, I got wondering how old time Mail pilots flew if caught in
IFR conditions.

By the 30's, the mail was going by airlines. I assume you mean the old open
cockpit planes of the 20's (like the Pitcairn Mailwing or the earlier Jennie).
A skilled pilot can keep one straight and level by the feel of the relative
wind on his cheeks and the sound of the wind in the wires, combined with the
ball and altimeter. This still isn't as good as a gyro stack, and the accident
rate was high. Lots of the pilots simply put the mail on the train if things
got too bad.

Lindberg discusses some of this in one of his books, and Gann has at least two
novels about the period. I've also read an old book by a veteran mail pilot,
but I have no idea any more what the title was (I checked it out from either
the Knoxville public library or the Bearden High School library in the 60's).

George Patterson
Brute force has an elegance all its own.


You guys must not remember the "Cat and Duck" method of flying
instruments. Hell, when I was a kid in the 1950's that's all we used.
Any of you young punks know what the hell I'm talking about?

BWB

Lindberg discusses some of this in one of his books, and Gann has at least two
novels about the period. I've also read an old book by a veteran mail pilot,
but I have no idea any more what the title was (I checked it out from either
the Knoxville public library or the Bearden High School library in the 60's).

George Patterson
Brute force has an elegance all its own.


You guys must not remember the "Cat and Duck" method of flying
instruments. Hell, when I was a kid in the 1950's that's all we used.
Any of you young punks know what the hell I'm talking about?

BWB
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Hey -
I'm still a young punk....
at heart.


http://www.skyhawk.org/2D/tinduck.htm
http://www.flippyscatpage.com/instrument.html
http://jokes-quotes.com/contentid-239.html
http://www.eaa445.org/instrument.htm
http://www.ahajokes.com/ani031.html
http://monster-island.org/tinashumor/humor/catduck.html


Barnyard BOb -- 50 years of flight