Will US Sport Pilot be insurable?

The US Sport Pilot initiative seems like it will be
fully approved in less than another year.
I wonder if Sport Pilots will be insurable in the US?
By happy coincidence, Jane and Dennis both seem
to be strong supporters, so I hope they
can help with the final problem (which has also
thwarted ultralights) of insurance.

Jane Garvey (head of US air regulations) supports the
Sport Pilot initiative, which would allow much looser
requirements for pilots and instructors transitioning from
power to simple gliders (such as the 2-33 or 1-26).

Dennis Wright (the US soaring association guy) agrees
US soaring is over-regulated and overly complex. See his
Dec 2003 Soaring editorial. "Remember 'safety' and
'fun' are not mutually exclusive". He strongly supports
sport pilot.

But in the US, the insurer has the veto power. Will
Sport Pilot, Jane, and Dennis be able to convince
insurers to cover this kind of flying?

There are more than 22 glider operations in California
(including Reno and half of them have 2-33s and/or 1-26s.
These operations have the potential to market to
over 600,000 current pilots with a new product:
a sport pilot glider license.

With no cumbersome and expensive FAA practical test,
the sport pilot transition requires a mere glider
instructor sign-off. Then the new sport pilot
can take a passenger (spouse, kids, parents, friends)
on lovely and quiet sunset flights in the 2-33...

And there is a large pool of instructors who can
also become sport glider instructors with no FAA
practical test, just requiring two sign-offs.
Potentially they can instruct at these clubs too.

Well...if the insurer agrees. Hopefully the
fact there hasn't been a US 2-33 fatality in 25 years
will help show the simplicity and built in safety of
that aircraft at least.

How have those in other countries fared? Do
you have lower level licenses for less performing
aircraft? Do you have issues finding insurance?
Have your licensing requirements "evolved" over time?
For example, in the US power pilots used to not
need IFR, night, or radio training. Our sport pilot
initiative is an attempt to get back to the simpler
standard by allowing only simple aircraft. Have
you had similar initiatives to reduce these slowly
rising barriers to pilot entry?

I am not sure if I got the sense: would be this licence only available =
to power pilots who want to fly also gliders, or this licence would be a =
licence which requires very limited knowledge check passing available to =
those who want to fly gliders only? E.g. an retired person who dreams of =
flying in his own PW-5 just to watch the California state from above. =
)

Regards,

Janusz Kesik

visit www.leszno.pl - home of the www.css-leszno.it.pl

"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
news:3fc51736$1@darkstar...
The US Sport Pilot initiative seems like it will be
fully approved in less than another year.


HA HA HA HA HA HA, that's a good one!
ROTFLMAO!

(we've been hearing this for several years now....snicker, snicker)

I am not sure if I got the sense: would be this licence only available =
to power pilots who want to fly also gliders, or this licence would be a =
licence which requires very limited knowledge check passing available to =
those who want to fly gliders only? E.g. an retired person who dreams of =
flying in his own PW-5 just to watch the California state from above. =
)

Janusz Kesik

In the US, current initial license requirements for a glider pilot
require flying with an "examiner or inspector." There are several
hundred of these in the nation.

The real benefit of the Sport Pilot initiative in the US
is that pilots who have already obtained a license in an
aircraft (for example a regular old airplane) could now
be approved for carrying passengers in another category of
aircraft (gliders) with just the signature of a US flight
instructor. There are tens of thousands of these instructors
in the US. So this would mean this option becomes maybe 100
times more available than having to use an "examiner or inspector."

This "sport pilot" privilege to fly a glider would only apply to
lower performing, lightweight gliders (like the 2-33 or Ka7) which
have a Vne less than 115 knots.

So what I'm wondering is what other countries require for
pilots who want to carry a passenger and transition from power
planes to gliders. Does it require a test like the original
license, or is it a simpler test given by a common,
everyday instructor?

In the US, pilots are already allowed to solo gliders with
just a checkout and signature by an instructor (no
FAA examiner or inspector) so this is not an issue in the US.

mark wrote:

"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
The US Sport Pilot initiative seems like it will be
fully approved in less than another year.

(we've been hearing this for several years now....snicker, snicker)

An excellent point. Look up "glider-trike" on google,
or read the US regs on non-glider pilots flying experimental
two seaters (like the Blanik), or notice that the Grob 109
has been used to get around the medical requirements, or
check out the regs for ultralight pilots through EAA, or
look at the "looseness" of experimental airworthiness
certificates (the builder gets to choose what category
and class).

Sneaky US pilots have been jumping from
airplane to "glider" legally for a while now with
nothing close to an "examiner or inspector" checking
their transition skills.

So will Sport Pilot come to fruition, or will
continued sneakiness be the norm? Hope springs
eternal...

BTIZ wrote:
I don't think there are "tens of thousands" qualified glider instructor
pilots in the US... I don't think an "airplane CFI" can endorse the
certificate/logbook for a power pilot to fly a "sport glider"

BT


There are tens of thousands of CFIs. With sport pilot, any of
them can become "sport glider CFIs" with two signatures
of "CFIGs or other sport glider CFIs". I KNOW this is much
easier than than scheduling/paying for an examiner CFIG checkride.

There are also NOT "hundreds" of glider examiners/inspectors in
the US. There are dozens. Try scheduling a check ride and look
at your choices and prices. Jeezzz... My FAA examiner is
going to need to get current before giving me my check
ride. Can you really tell me he is going to do a more insightful
job than our club instructor who trains pilots every weekend
(oops I hope he doesn't read this :-blush--)

My point was the 10:1 ratio. And this ratio is purposefully
sustained by the FAA to ensure the DPEs/designees remain
profitable and have some job security (a position I
fully support).

Any way you slice it though, for transition pilots it becomes
easier to fly a 2-33 or ka7 with a passenger after sport pilot
than before.

P.S. Maybe it's 20:1 or 5:1, but hey, gimme some fudge, ok?
This is all fast and loose anyway...

I don't think there are "tens of thousands" qualified glider instructor
pilots in the US... I don't think an "airplane CFI" can endorse the
certificate/logbook for a power pilot to fly a "sport glider"

off to do more research..

BT

"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
news:3fc642dd$1@darkstar...
I am not sure if I got the sense: would be this licence only available =
to power pilots who want to fly also gliders, or this licence would be a
=
licence which requires very limited knowledge check passing available to
=
those who want to fly gliders only? E.g. an retired person who dreams of
=
flying in his own PW-5 just to watch the California state from above. =
)

Janusz Kesik

In the US, current initial license requirements for a glider pilot
require flying with an "examiner or inspector." There are several
hundred of these in the nation.

The real benefit of the Sport Pilot initiative in the US
is that pilots who have already obtained a license in an
aircraft (for example a regular old airplane) could now
be approved for carrying passengers in another category of
aircraft (gliders) with just the signature of a US flight
instructor. There are tens of thousands of these instructors
in the US. So this would mean this option becomes maybe 100
times more available than having to use an "examiner or inspector."

This "sport pilot" privilege to fly a glider would only apply to
lower performing, lightweight gliders (like the 2-33 or Ka7) which
have a Vne less than 115 knots.

So what I'm wondering is what other countries require for
pilots who want to carry a passenger and transition from power
planes to gliders. Does it require a test like the original
license, or is it a simpler test given by a common,
everyday instructor?

In the US, pilots are already allowed to solo gliders with
just a checkout and signature by an instructor (no
FAA examiner or inspector) so this is not an issue in the US.

Mark.. could you further explain? the "getting around the regs"

I agree that a power rated pilot can fly aa Blanik L-13 glider with just a
glider instructors endorsement, however he cannot carry passengers as PIC in
the glider and AFAIK the endorsement is only good for 90 days.

please provide FARs you refer to that allow anything more than the above.

Yes.. Grob109s are motor "gliders" and as such do not require a medical
certificate. They do require a "glider rating certificate with self launch
endorsement" to fly as PIC and carry passengers.

Again AFAIK, an airplane rated pilot with a "solo glider endorsement" (must
state "self launch") is not qualified to carry passengers with out the FAA
checkride to add the "glider rating", an instructor can endorse for "method
of launch", either tow, ground (winch/auto) or self launch.

BT

"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
news:3fc64865$1@darkstar...
mark wrote:

"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
The US Sport Pilot initiative seems like it will be
fully approved in less than another year.

(we've been hearing this for several years now....snicker, snicker)

An excellent point. Look up "glider-trike" on google,
or read the US regs on non-glider pilots flying experimental
two seaters (like the Blanik), or notice that the Grob 109
has been used to get around the medical requirements, or
check out the regs for ultralight pilots through EAA, or
look at the "looseness" of experimental airworthiness
certificates (the builder gets to choose what category
and class).

Sneaky US pilots have been jumping from
airplane to "glider" legally for a while now with
nothing close to an "examiner or inspector" checking
their transition skills.

So will Sport Pilot come to fruition, or will
continued sneakiness be the norm? Hope springs
eternal...

fudge given... I agree with what you state below.. just did not sound that
way on the first posting.. come on out.. we have an FAA Glider DE with the
club.. just got to work around his airline flying schedule.

BT

"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
news:3fc6528c$1@darkstar...
BTIZ wrote:
I don't think there are "tens of thousands" qualified glider instructor
pilots in the US... I don't think an "airplane CFI" can endorse the
certificate/logbook for a power pilot to fly a "sport glider"

BT


There are tens of thousands of CFIs. With sport pilot, any of
them can become "sport glider CFIs" with two signatures
of "CFIGs or other sport glider CFIs". I KNOW this is much
easier than than scheduling/paying for an examiner CFIG checkride.

There are also NOT "hundreds" of glider examiners/inspectors in
the US. There are dozens. Try scheduling a check ride and look
at your choices and prices. Jeezzz... My FAA examiner is
going to need to get current before giving me my check
ride. Can you really tell me he is going to do a more insightful
job than our club instructor who trains pilots every weekend
(oops I hope he doesn't read this :-blush--)

My point was the 10:1 ratio. And this ratio is purposefully
sustained by the FAA to ensure the DPEs/designees remain
profitable and have some job security (a position I
fully support).

Any way you slice it though, for transition pilots it becomes
easier to fly a 2-33 or ka7 with a passenger after sport pilot
than before.

P.S. Maybe it's 20:1 or 5:1, but hey, gimme some fudge, ok?
This is all fast and loose anyway...

In article s4sxb.11223$ML6.10295@fed1read01,
BTIZ wrote:
Mark.. could you further explain? the "getting around the regs"

I agree that a power rated pilot can fly aa Blanik L-13 glider with just a
glider instructors endorsement, however he cannot carry passengers as PIC in
the glider and AFAIK the endorsement is only good for 90 days.

please provide FARs you refer to that allow anything more than the above.
61.31(k)(2)(iii)...assume the Blanik is experimental


Yes.. Grob109s are motor "gliders" and as such do not require a medical
certificate. They do require a "glider rating certificate with self launch
endorsement" to fly as PIC and carry passengers.
Absolutely true. My point was that Sport Pilot doesn't require
a medical either.


Again AFAIK, an airplane rated pilot with a "solo glider endorsement" (must
state "self launch") is not qualified to carry passengers with out the FAA
checkride to add the "glider rating", an instructor can endorse for "method
of launch", either tow, ground (winch/auto) or self launch.
"not qualified to carry passengers in an aircraft with a non-experimental
glider airworthiness certificate" is more accurate.

In the reverse case, a local glider pilot asked our FSDO if it
would be OK to change his Piper Cub from a standard airplane
airworthiness certificate to an experimental glider (self-launch,
of course). He got the rather bland response "if the purpose
of the aircraft was for gliding..." He did not follow through
for other reasons, however.

My point was just that there are significant loopholes for
pilots who wish to find them, and the FAA is perfectly content
to be permissive when there is no significant threat to safety...

"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
news:3fc64865$1@darkstar...
mark wrote:

"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
The US Sport Pilot initiative seems like it will be
fully approved in less than another year.

(we've been hearing this for several years now....snicker, snicker)

An excellent point. Look up "glider-trike" on google,
or read the US regs on non-glider pilots flying experimental
two seaters (like the Blanik), or notice that the Grob 109
has been used to get around the medical requirements, or
check out the regs for ultralight pilots through EAA, or
look at the "looseness" of experimental airworthiness
certificates (the builder gets to choose what category
and class).

Sneaky US pilots have been jumping from
airplane to "glider" legally for a while now with
nothing close to an "examiner or inspector" checking
their transition skills.

So will Sport Pilot come to fruition, or will
continued sneakiness be the norm? Hope springs
eternal...