Landout Laws

We had two landouts at Seminole yesterday, both in the same field, - a
pasture with cattle and a locked gate. One of the pilots visited a nearby
farmhouse, and spoke with the wife of the property owner asking permission
to enter and a key. She was very nice and called her son. He agreed to
call back on the pilots cell phone. The Sheriff was also called and did not
call back. An hour later, with both trailers at the gate, we called the
Sheriff again and advised that we intended to cut a link in the chain, and
replace it with a padlock when we left, and mail the key to the owner. This
would leave his field secure, and there was no damage. The Sheriff's office
made it clear they were not giving permission, and the retrieve crew made it
clear they were not asking for permission, merely advising the Sheriff of
their intentions, citing the approaching sunset and $220,000 of aircraft in
a field with cattle. A bolt cutter gave entry, and we commenced derigging,
leaving our most charming crew member at the gate. Both the son of the
owner and the Sheriff arrived. The son was extremely upset, insisting that
charges be laid. The Sheriff, seemingly somewhat reluctantly, fingerprinted
both pilots and wrote up a proposal for charges, which he said would be
presented to the public attorney to decide whether to proceed. Nothing
further has been heard, and we hope / believe nothing further will be heard.

My question is: - what is the law governing a landout on private property?
What are the rights of the pilot and of the property owner? Where are these
rights codified? The Sheriff said if we had done the same thing after he
arrived, he would not have laid charges. He did not charge the retrieve
crew with breaking and entering or trespassing. What about the crew
situation?

BTW, all concerned did act as 'ambassadors of the sport', but the son was
implacable.

Charles Petersen wrote:

We had two landouts at Seminole yesterday, both in the same field, - a
pasture with cattle and a locked gate. One of the pilots visited a nearby
farmhouse, and spoke with the wife of the property owner asking permission
to enter and a key. She was very nice and called her son. He agreed to
call back on the pilots cell phone. The Sheriff was also called and did not
call back. An hour later, with both trailers at the gate, we called the
Sheriff again and advised that we intended to cut a link in the chain, and
replace it with a padlock when we left, and mail the key to the owner. This
would leave his field secure, and there was no damage. The Sheriff's office
made it clear they were not giving permission, and the retrieve crew made it
clear they were not asking for permission, merely advising the Sheriff of
their intentions, citing the approaching sunset and $220,000 of aircraft in
a field with cattle. A bolt cutter gave entry, and we commenced derigging,
leaving our most charming crew member at the gate. Both the son of the
owner and the Sheriff arrived. The son was extremely upset, insisting that
charges be laid. The Sheriff, seemingly somewhat reluctantly, fingerprinted
both pilots and wrote up a proposal for charges, which he said would be
presented to the public attorney to decide whether to proceed. Nothing
further has been heard, and we hope / believe nothing further will be heard.

My question is: - what is the law governing a landout on private property?
What are the rights of the pilot and of the property owner? Where are these
rights codified? The Sheriff said if we had done the same thing after he
arrived, he would not have laid charges. He did not charge the retrieve
crew with breaking and entering or trespassing. What about the crew
situation?

BTW, all concerned did act as 'ambassadors of the sport', but the son was
implacable.


I read that if the owner doesn't want to grant access, they are still
responsible for the safety of your property on their land (i.e. the
gliders). I don't know if this is true everywhere (anywhere?) in the
U.S., but unless you land on a lawyers farm, it might be a good thing to
bring up to lube the gate lock.
"O.K., we'll straighten this out some other time while you take good
care of my $75k aircraft that is serving as a salt lick. Sorry about
the inconvenience."

Cheers,
Shawn

Earlier, "Charles Petersen" wrote:

...BTW, all concerned did act as
'ambassadors of the sport', but
the son was implacable.

In my experience, the most effective things for landouts a

* Make it clear that the landing was unintentional, and the field was
chosen as a best last resort. Be visibly relieved that their field was
available so that you didn't have to crash.

* If they are anything but happy to have you there, offer them about
$100 in cash per glider in exchange for any "damages" even if you
landed in weeds, fallow, pasture, or plowed. That usually cheers them
up at least a little. That's worked great for the two ag field
retrieves I've worked. If you don't have $100 cash, or couldn't stand
to part with it if you did, you probably shouldn't be flying
cross-country.

* If they demand more, give them contact info for your glider
insurance company and explain that the agricultural claims inspectors
will have to look into it. They will often just take the hundred bucks
rather than mess with the claims paperwork. But if you've landed in a
row crop or something like, you can be fairly certain that you _have_
made a dent in their bottom line, and you should be prepared to take
financial responsibility for the risks inherent in cross-country
soaring.

* When they do get really irate, go ahead and call the sheriff or
local law. You can't be exactly sure what the officer will do or whose
side they're on, but at least you can be relatively certain they'll
know that intentionally damaging an aircraft is a federal offense, and
they probably won't let anybody get hurt.

Other, more experienced, outlanders doubless have additional advice.

Thanks, and best regards

Bob K.

I am a farmer and pilot, I work with all the Mifflin contests, and have had
a few dealings with irrate farmers before. Most of them are just jealous,
and I hate jealous people. One even had the nerve to tell my father, who we
sent along on the retrieve to smoothe over this irrate farmer, that if he
can afford to fly that thing, he can afford to pay me 500 to get it out of
the field. That is not the point. The point is, if we start setting a
precedent of paying to smoothe people over, even if nothing is damaged, then
afterwhile we will have no where that any of us can AFFORD to land out. I
think it is the right thing to do to pay when something is damaged, but not
in a cow pasture!! Nothing can get damaged there. My family owns a farm
within the traffic pattern at Mifflin, if enough of you land out there, I
will fire up the grill and we can have a cook out. To paraphrase my point
here, be ambassadors for the sport, but don't be pushovers. After about 5
minutes with some guy in a field, you should be able to figure out if he
belongs to the human race, or is just some SOB trying to milk you for
money!!

Brian Glick

"Bob Kuykendall" wrote in message
m...
Earlier, "Charles Petersen" wrote:

...BTW, all concerned did act as
'ambassadors of the sport', but
the son was implacable.

In my experience, the most effective things for landouts a

* Make it clear that the landing was unintentional, and the field was
chosen as a best last resort. Be visibly relieved that their field was
available so that you didn't have to crash.

* If they are anything but happy to have you there, offer them about
$100 in cash per glider in exchange for any "damages" even if you
landed in weeds, fallow, pasture, or plowed. That usually cheers them
up at least a little. That's worked great for the two ag field
retrieves I've worked. If you don't have $100 cash, or couldn't stand
to part with it if you did, you probably shouldn't be flying
cross-country.

* If they demand more, give them contact info for your glider
insurance company and explain that the agricultural claims inspectors
will have to look into it. They will often just take the hundred bucks
rather than mess with the claims paperwork. But if you've landed in a
row crop or something like, you can be fairly certain that you _have_
made a dent in their bottom line, and you should be prepared to take
financial responsibility for the risks inherent in cross-country
soaring.

* When they do get really irate, go ahead and call the sheriff or
local law. You can't be exactly sure what the officer will do or whose
side they're on, but at least you can be relatively certain they'll
know that intentionally damaging an aircraft is a federal offense, and
they probably won't let anybody get hurt.

Other, more experienced, outlanders doubless have additional advice.

Thanks, and best regards

Bob K.

Hi Chuck,
Been there, done that. I once had the gate to an oil rig, half disassembled
when a company man showed up. I quickly said, "If you'll unlock this gate, I'll
be glad to put it back together for you". It doesn't take a rocket scientest to
see who's going to win in your situation. It's his property and you are
trespassing.

A friend and I once started a final glide without sufficient altitude, he went
left around a knob and I went right. He didn't come out on the other side. Had
no time to worry about him as I had a developing problem of my own. Flew on
down this canyon and soon found myself at 80 knots and about 5 feet, over the
sagebrush. I knew Air Sailing was close, but I couldn't spot it (can't see to
far from 5 feet) Then I spotted a camper and figured it must be located at the
airport. Exchanged my 80 knots for about 100 feet and found myself lined up
with the cross-wind runway. I'll take luck over skill, any day.

What's this got to do with landing in a farmers field? My friend called in to
say he had landed in a pasture way up the canyon and would we bring lots of
help. We all went up there and found the farmer quite irate. He refused to
allow the trailer to come on his property. Made us carry the assembled glider
about a mile to the edge of his property. The guy was sending a message to us
folks at Air Sailing, "I live up here because I'm a hermit and I don't want any
GD gliders on my property". That's his right, we ARE trespassing. The same
farmer later held two pilots at gun-point for hours untill the Sheriff showed
up. We finally got the message.

Bolt cutters? That could be construed as burglary tools (I carry a hack saw,
less obvious) Hang in there, It'll be OK, but remember this next time.
JJ Sinclair

I have absolutely no legal training, but I landed in a ciruit court
judge's field once. He wasn't happy, but over time we managed to cool
off and talk about the particulars. Here's what came out of the
conversation:

When you land in a field, you are trespassing, and you should conduct
yourself as such.

The owner, can, in theory, order you off his property. If he forces
you to leave your sailplane behind, he becomes liable for its safe
keeping.

The law is your friend. If things get out of hand, recommend that he
call the authorities, or call them yourself. They don't want to do any
paperwork unless there is obvious damage. They will usually calm the
farmer down and expedite your retrieve.

Since you have already done damage to his property (by landing on it),
don't exacerbate the situation by causing more. Cutting a gate chain
or lock is tantamount to breaking into his place of work. How would
you feel if someone knocked down the door to your business, then put
up a new one with a note saying the key is in the mail? (I've faced
the same dilemma and chosen the path of breaking and entering. Just be
clear that there's NO justification for your actions, certainly not
from the point of view of the property owner. It is very possible you
may expose him to more financial risk by your actions than the value
of your $100K glider. You are jeopardizing his income for the sake of
your overpriced plastic toy.)

Never offer money to placate the farmer. Yes, it is convenient for
difusing an otherwise uncomfortable situation, but it sets an
undesirable precedent and puts both you and the farmer on questionable
legal ground. From your point of view, it is an admission of fault...
and who knows what fault the farmer may find after you leave. Don't
bring up the subject yourself. Let the farmer ask for money. Inform
him that you are insured for any damage you do and you are happy to
give him your insurance information. (We discussed whether asking for
money constituted running an unauthorized landing strip... I used this
notion once to answer such a demand. I then offered my insurance
information. It worked. The farmer wasn't happy, but at least he had
improved to "politely annoyed" by the time I left. He never followed
up with my insurance company.)

Reimbursing him for services offered is another matter entirely. If he
wants to use a tractor to fetch the glider, or prefers using his 4x4,
or wants one of his farmhands to oversee the retrieve, then it is OK
to offer a reasonable fee in exchange.

Never forget who the uninvited guest is. You've called him away from
his work. This has a measurable impact on his business. You may have
damaged his land, property, or livestock. You are, in his opinion, a
dilettante, serving no valuable function in the world. (If you don't
understand why, put yourself in his shoes, and get real.) Swallow the
farmer's antipathy with polite patience. After all, you deserve it.
And remember what your objective is: to get your glider home in one
piece... and hopefully leave an impression that will improve
conditions for the next sailplane pilot who lands there.

I had the opportunity to visit Seminole for the first time a few weeks ago -
and had a very good time. Ingrid and Knut made me feel very welcome, and it
was also a very welcome break from the miserable PA winter. I look forward
to returning often.

Every gliderport seems to have a few known fields where the owners are
unfriendly. Invariably it seems to be the result of the owner having been
treated poorly at some time in the past (even if no damage was done, just
not respecting the fact that you are a guest on their land and asking
permission to do anything is at the very least rude and disrespectful of
their ownership rights).

During my stay at Seminole, I had the opportunity to meet a number of
farmers/landowners :-/ One story that emerged consistently from them is
having been treated poorly by the hang-glider crowd (I understand that there
is quite a lot of hang-glider activity near Seminole). This ran the gamut
from rudeness to minor property damage to broken fences and loose livestock.
No one sees a difference between a hang glider and a sailplane.

I don't know that this problem reflects the current behavior of the
hang-glider crowd - and once the damage is done it doesn't matter. But be
aware that you may inherit the sins not only of your sibling but also of
your distant cousin when you land out, and need to repair relations you
didn't break. Also remember when flying in a new location to get as part of
your field check any info on the known problem landowners.
--
John Godfrey (QT)
SSA State Governor PA Region 3

"Charles Petersen" wrote in message
...
We had two landouts at Seminole yesterday, both in the same field, - a
pasture with cattle and a locked gate. One of the pilots visited a nearby
farmhouse, and spoke with the wife of the property owner asking permission
to enter and a key. She was very nice and called her son. He agreed to
call back on the pilots cell phone. The Sheriff was also called and did
not
call back. An hour later, with both trailers at the gate, we called the
Sheriff again and advised that we intended to cut a link in the chain, and
replace it with a padlock when we left, and mail the key to the owner.
This
would leave his field secure, and there was no damage. The Sheriff's
office
made it clear they were not giving permission, and the retrieve crew made
it
clear they were not asking for permission, merely advising the Sheriff of
their intentions, citing the approaching sunset and $220,000 of aircraft
in
a field with cattle. A bolt cutter gave entry, and we commenced
derigging,
leaving our most charming crew member at the gate. Both the son of the
owner and the Sheriff arrived. The son was extremely upset, insisting
that
charges be laid. The Sheriff, seemingly somewhat reluctantly,
fingerprinted
both pilots and wrote up a proposal for charges, which he said would be
presented to the public attorney to decide whether to proceed. Nothing
further has been heard, and we hope / believe nothing further will be
heard.

My question is: - what is the law governing a landout on private property?
What are the rights of the pilot and of the property owner? Where are
these
rights codified? The Sheriff said if we had done the same thing after he
arrived, he would not have laid charges. He did not charge the retrieve
crew with breaking and entering or trespassing. What about the crew
situation?

BTW, all concerned did act as 'ambassadors of the sport', but the son was
implacable.

Shawn Curry wrote:
My question is: - what is the law governing a landout on private property?
Same as always. Who has more guns. (If you have a radio or cell
phone, and can call people to come with guns, this is good too).
Bow and arrow can be used in extreme duress...

What are the rights of the pilot and of the property owner?
Ever see "Deliverance" or "Pulp Fiction"? I'd suggest soaring over
Ohio or North Dakota, and not so much over
parts of Louisiana or Humboldt County...

Any of you pilots who think you can land anywhere you like
and have it always turn out fine, boy you must know something
I don't...I'm sticken' with known "friendly" landout spots...

I've been flying something for 34 years. That has included powered,
gliders, ultralights, paragliders and hang gliders. I would say that
assigning the blame for problems with landowners solely to the pilot of
whatever type of aircraft is involved is inappropriate without knowing the
circumstances involved in each case.

I have over 50 outlandings in gliders and several hundred in hang gliders.
I have been nothing but humble and gracious with landowners but have had a
few cases of irrate people no matter what I did or say to calm them down. I
have flown at Wallaby (one of the hang glider operations near Seminole) and
have visited, but not flown at Seminole. There are jerks in every facet of
aviation and in my experience no one group can say that they are better
ambassadors than another.

By virtue of the lesser performance of hang gliders they land out much more
often than sailplanes and that may be one reason that some landowners simply
get tired of seeing them especially those on the downwind side of the towing
operations.

The initial poster did the best he could and I would have probably have done
the same. There are just going to be some days that the bear gets you.

Casey Lenox
KC
Phoenix

With all due respect to those who've already paid, I don't agree with
offering $100 for several reasons:

1) In the context described, it's an admission of liability for
whatever damages the owner may decide (now or after you've departed)
that you--or the hordes of spectators who run/drive out into the field
to see the "glider crash"--have inflicted.

2) It invites a counteroffer/demand: e.g., "Gee, if this rich pilot is
offering $100, I can probably get $500 out of him."

3) It guarantees that the NEXT guy to land in your field will be hit
with a substantial demand.

I've landed out about 100 times over the past 35 years and only had a
few sticky situations. I like to think it's because I really try hard
to treat the owners like human beings rather than ignorant peasants.
Witnessing some of our crowd trying to communicate with local land
owners is like watching someone speaking loudly to a blind person on
the mistaken assumption that he/she is either deaf or stupid.

Be that as it may, I've had my troubles. One bad case was an irascible
owner about whom I was warned by the locals just before he drove up in
his Cadillac. I went through the whole "I didn't have any choice, I'm
just glad your field was here, I touched down between the rows [of 6"
high beans] to prevent any damage, my primary concern is keeping
spectators out of the field so they won't damage anything [this is a
real issue and also resonates well with the owner as it says two
things: you know what you're talking about, and you two are on the
same side], thank you so much for your hospitality, etc."

The owner walked back to the car, reached in for a clipboard, and
shoved it at me, demanding that I supply my name, address, etc.
Diplomacy wasn't working so I walked over to the cockpit, got my own
clipboard and one of my turnpoint cameras and politely but firmly
asked the farmer for HIS data, as well, explaining that I obviously
hadn't done any damage so far, that my crew and I would de-rig and
carry out the pieces to avoid any damage, and (importantly) that I
would take photos from all four directions both before and after the
glider was moved to establish to my insurance company that there
wasn't any damage. Oh, and by the way, I planned to ask these nice
fellows standing around us to sign a statement attesting to the lack
of damage. I gave him my name, insurance contact, etc., but never
heard a word.

The only other sticky experience was when I had the misfortune to land
in a beautiful hay field in Maryland...precisely one year after the
previous GLIDER pilot had landed, driven over the hay to get his
glider, and vanished before the farmer could find out who had done the
damage. The injured farmer had been waiting one year to vent his anger
and extract revenge!

It took me almost an hour to talk him down and leave him reasonably
mollified. If I could have gotten my hands around the throat of the
idiot who'd caused the whole thing a year earlier, I'd have done what
the farmer originally wanted to do to him myself.

My advice: If you've really damaged the crop, apologize for the
situation without admitting or promising too much (yes, it's your
fault, but don't encourage the owner to think he's hit the lottery).
Give the owner your insurance information and reassure him; that's
what insurance is for, it doesn't happen very often, you've never had
a claim, etc.

And be nice. I can't emphasize this enough. Be nice and just keep
talking. Put yourself in this person's shoes and commiserate. And
although first impressions count for a lot (i.e., the first person the
owner encounters is you), having a crewperson arrive who is equally
skilled in conversation (and/or who is an attractive female) also
helps. Having a couple of cute kids pop out of the retrieve vehicle
and exclaim over the cows helps even more, for yet another reason why
you should get your family involved in soaring.

If you haven't damaged anything, be nice but try to avoid bending to
extortion demands. I'm not a lawyer but my impression is that if the
farmer refuses to let you secure your glider, he assumes liability if
anything should occur. Most officers of the law are likely to be
helpful in this regard even if they're friendly with the owner. If it
starts to get tense, insisting on calling the local police/sheriff
often helps cool things down; the irate owner usually doesn't expect
the trespasser to call the police.

Having said all of this, I'll admit that I have occasionally paid
small amounts of cash as we're packing up to leave, mostly in
compensation for the tractor that pulled the glider out of the field,
etc. But I always ask if I can make a contribution to the owner's
church instead of offering him the money directly. I've never had
anyone look offended or fail to smile genuinely, shake my hand, and
thank me. And I think all of my contributions have found their way
into the offering plate on Sunday, making the whole experience a
win-win for everyone.

These days, offer to take the owner's picture with the glider using
your digital camera and email him the photo. If he's a good guy, he
will appreciate it. If he's threatening, the mere mention of
photographic evidence might encourage him to be more cooperative.

Just my opinion. Every situation is different. Remain calm even if the
owner isn't acting rationally. Sometimes the best solution is to just
keep smiling, keep soothing, and wait it out. Just because you can
afford to fly doesn't give an opportunistic field owner the right to a
transfer payment from your wallet to his.

And keep thinking about the pilot who's going to land in the same
field next year. Try to make sure he gets a nice reception, because it
could be me.

Chip Bearden

* Make it clear that the landing was unintentional, and the field was
chosen as a best last resort. Be visibly relieved that their field was
available so that you didn't have to crash.

* If they are anything but happy to have you there, offer them about
$100 in cash per glider in exchange for any "damages" even if you
landed in weeds, fallow, pasture, or plowed. That usually cheers them
up at least a little. That's worked great for the two ag field
retrieves I've worked. If you don't have $100 cash, or couldn't stand
to part with it if you did, you probably shouldn't be flying
cross-country.