Next glider, ownership costs question?

Low time pilot, 60hrs, have done some solo cross country flying but not a lot. Sold my 1-26E a few years ago (not by choice, business debt at the time).

My first thought is to jump into another 1-26 or 1-34 for a number of reasons (safety and availability). I could land my 1-26 just about anywhere!

My budget is 10K or less, and I am still saving, so in the meantime I'm wondering about inexpensive older fiberglass options such as the Libelle, etc.

Are fiberglass gliders more expensive to maintain and repair?

Easily damaged on rough landouts?

Qualified mechanics easier or harder to find, vs aluminum?

Insurance costs aluminum vs fiberglass?

Are fabric covered gliders (1-26 A,B) much more expensive to maintain?

I remember a local pilot telling me he spent a few thousand dollars re-covering his 1-26 and that it needed to be done every X number of years (I can't remember that number now).

As usual hangar space might be possible but is usually unlikely due to demand.

Any advice appreciated.

Thanks
Tom

On Sun, 19 Nov 2017 08:03:10 -0800, flgliderpilot wrote:

My budget is 10K or less, and I am still saving, so in the meantime I'm
wondering about inexpensive older fiberglass options such as the
Libelle, etc.

I fly an early Standard Libelle and love it to bits. The only damage
comment I'd make is that its doesn't have a T-tail, so there's a risk
dinging the tailplane if you land on a field which is growing stuff that
is more than 12-18 inches (30-40cm) tall. Against that, support from
Glasfaser, who hold the type certificate, is excellent for both
accessories and spares.

Most of what I've learned in the last 11 years of flying mine is he

http://www.gregorie.org/gliding/libelle/h201_notes.html

and photos, etc. of min and what I've done to the panel etc is he

http://www.gregorie.org/gliding/libelle/index.html


Are fiberglass gliders more expensive to maintain and repair?

I don't believe so.

Easily damaged on rough landouts?

See above.

Its also worth noting that Libelles are currently going up in price in
Europe and the UK: its rather nice to have an older glider that's not
depreciating!

Final comment: Std Libelles suit tall pilots just fine but aren't so good
for broad shoulders or the bigger girth pilot, but go look and sit in one
to see for yourself. Just bear in mind that you're likely to be sitting
in it for 5 hours at a stretch when you get into XC flying.

If you're in those categories and an H.205 Club Libelle comes up for
sale, go and look at it because it has:

- a much more capacious cockpit,

- hinged canopy,

- T-tail,

- more powerful airbrakes

- higher-mounted wing (shoulder- rather than mid-) than
a H.201 Standard Libelle.

It will probably quite a bit cheaper too. They don't seem to be much
behind the H.201 on performance despite the fixed undercarriage, probably
because the wing is very nicely faired to the fuselage.



--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Sunday, November 19, 2017 at 11:03:11 AM UTC-5, flgliderpilot wrote:
Low time pilot, 60hrs, have done some solo cross country flying but not a lot. Sold my 1-26E a few years ago (not by choice, business debt at the time).

My first thought is to jump into another 1-26 or 1-34 for a number of reasons (safety and availability). I could land my 1-26 just about anywhere!

My budget is 10K or less, and I am still saving, so in the meantime I'm wondering about inexpensive older fiberglass options such as the Libelle, etc.

Are fiberglass gliders more expensive to maintain and repair?

Easily damaged on rough landouts?

Qualified mechanics easier or harder to find, vs aluminum?

Insurance costs aluminum vs fiberglass?

Are fabric covered gliders (1-26 A,B) much more expensive to maintain?

I remember a local pilot telling me he spent a few thousand dollars re-covering his 1-26 and that it needed to be done every X number of years (I can't remember that number now).

As usual hangar space might be possible but is usually unlikely due to demand.

Any advice appreciated.

Thanks
Tom

Tom,
The problem with 1-26 is that you will have to be catching every thermal ahead of you or you will have to hurry back to the last one to prevent to be landing out. You will land out with 1-26 a lot and with that the safe 1-26 has a risk factor. Go for something better performance. The Libelle: My shoulder with is 19" and I cannot fit in the Libelle 201, however if you have 17.5" will work for you. There is lots of leg room in the Libelle, a 6ft 3" tall person would fit in. There is one for sale in St. Louis for $9500 (Wings and Wheels) with TWO trailers, (open and closed), has great vario, new canopy..... It is a nice glider and the seller is super nice.

The problem with 1-26 is that you will have to be catching every thermal ahead of you or you
will have to hurry back to the last one to prevent to be landing out. You will land out with 1-26
a lot and with that the safe 1-26 has a risk factor. Go for something better performance. The
Libelle: My shoulder with is 19" and I cannot fit in the Libelle 201, however if you have 17.5"
will work for you. There is lots of leg room in the Libelle, a 6ft 3" tall person would fit in. There
is one for sale in St. Louis for $9500 (Wings and Wheels) with TWO trailers, (open and closed), has great vario, new canopy..... It is a nice glider and the seller is super nice.

True, this described my silver distance attempts exactly. I'd do 2/3's of the triangle and get stuck in a weak thermal trying over and over to get to the next thermal anywhere up wind. I'd have to scurry back re-gain altitude over until the thermal would break up and I'd land out. The challenge was of course fun at first but the cost of tow plane retrievals started to add up and take the joy out of it. But, I hadn't given up.

I may not actually fit in a Libelle... only 5'4 and around 200 pounds. Not all that fat but stocky and wide (and add parachute).

On Monday, 20 November 2017 07:56:29 UTC+11, flgliderpilot wrote:
The problem with 1-26 is that you will have to be catching every thermal ahead of you or you
will have to hurry back to the last one to prevent to be landing out. You will land out with 1-26
a lot and with that the safe 1-26 has a risk factor. Go for something better performance. The
Libelle: My shoulder with is 19" and I cannot fit in the Libelle 201, however if you have 17.5"
will work for you. There is lots of leg room in the Libelle, a 6ft 3" tall person would fit in. There
is one for sale in St. Louis for $9500 (Wings and Wheels) with TWO trailers, (open and closed), has great vario, new canopy..... It is a nice glider and the seller is super nice.

True, this described my silver distance attempts exactly. I'd do 2/3's of the triangle and get stuck in a weak thermal trying over and over to get to the next thermal anywhere up wind. I'd have to scurry back re-gain altitude over until the thermal would break up and I'd land out. The challenge was of course fun at first but the cost of tow plane retrievals started to add up and take the joy out of it. But, I hadn't given up.

I may not actually fit in a Libelle... only 5'4 and around 200 pounds. Not all that fat but stocky and wide (and add parachute).

Then go for a Hornet (H206). Armchair cockpit, inflight adjustable seatback and rudder pedals. Lots of room. Goes just a bit better than a Libelle and and is even easier to rig, also has a T Tail. Support for this old line of gliders by Glasfaser is nothing short of superb.

On Sunday, November 19, 2017 at 3:54:35 PM UTC-6, FNQ Mark wrote:
On Monday, 20 November 2017 07:56:29 UTC+11, flgliderpilot wrote:
The problem with 1-26 is that you will have to be catching every thermal ahead of you or you
will have to hurry back to the last one to prevent to be landing out. You will land out with 1-26
a lot and with that the safe 1-26 has a risk factor. Go for something better performance. The
Libelle: My shoulder with is 19" and I cannot fit in the Libelle 201, however if you have 17.5"
will work for you. There is lots of leg room in the Libelle, a 6ft 3" tall person would fit in. There
is one for sale in St. Louis for $9500 (Wings and Wheels) with TWO trailers, (open and closed), has great vario, new canopy..... It is a nice glider and the seller is super nice.

True, this described my silver distance attempts exactly. I'd do 2/3's of the triangle and get stuck in a weak thermal trying over and over to get to the next thermal anywhere up wind. I'd have to scurry back re-gain altitude over until the thermal would break up and I'd land out. The challenge was of course fun at first but the cost of tow plane retrievals started to add up and take the joy out of it. But, I hadn't given up.

I may not actually fit in a Libelle... only 5'4 and around 200 pounds. Not all that fat but stocky and wide (and add parachute).

Then go for a Hornet (H206). Armchair cockpit, inflight adjustable seatback and rudder pedals. Lots of room. Goes just a bit better than a Libelle and and is even easier to rig, also has a T Tail. Support for this old line of gliders by Glasfaser is nothing short of superb.

I've never been around either Hornets or libelles, but I'm 6'2" 245lbs, and I love my standard cirrus.
Scott

On Sun, 19 Nov 2017 12:56:28 -0800, flgliderpilot wrote:

The problem with 1-26 is that you will have to be catching every
thermal ahead of you or you
will have to hurry back to the last one to prevent to be landing out.
You will land out with 1-26 a lot and with that the safe 1-26 has a risk
factor. Go for something better performance. The Libelle: My shoulder
with is 19" and I cannot fit in the Libelle 201, however if you have
17.5"
will work for you. There is lots of leg room in the Libelle, a 6ft 3"
tall person would fit in. There is one for sale in St. Louis for $9500
(Wings and Wheels) with TWO trailers, (open and closed), has great
vario, new canopy..... It is a nice glider and the seller is super nice.

True, this described my silver distance attempts exactly. I'd do 2/3's
of the triangle and get stuck in a weak thermal trying over and over to
get to the next thermal anywhere up wind. I'd have to scurry back
re-gain altitude over until the thermal would break up and I'd land out.
The challenge was of course fun at first but the cost of tow plane
retrievals started to add up and take the joy out of it. But, I hadn't
given up.

I may not actually fit in a Libelle... only 5'4 and around 200 pounds.
Not all that fat but stocky and wide (and add parachute).

Additional explanation: viewed head-on, the Libelle cockpit cross-section
is pretty much triangular with well-rounded-off corners. In other words,
the space between the canopy rails, which are at shoulder height for most
people, are quite a bit narrower than the part of the cockpit between
them and the seat pan.

At my club we have three Standard Libelles and a Club Libelle.

Almost anybody fits in the Club Libelle. It has the biggest cockpit I've
seen on a single seater apart from a Std Cirrus. BTW, the latter has some
of the worst rear vision I've seen thanks to the width of the rear
cockpit bulkhead. So lets ignore the Club Libelle for this discussion.

Our longest standing Libelle pilot is reasonably chubby and taller than
yourself. He says his is comfortable but admits that he has to wriggle
down and get his shoulders under the canopy rails.

I'm a moderately tall lightweight (5' 10", 65 kg) and have no issues at
all with the Libelle's cockpit comfort.

The third Standard Libelle is a new arrival at the club and is owned by a
syndicate. Both owners are about my height and a bit heavier than me.
Neither has said anything about comfort, so I assume they don't have
comfort issues.

If there's a Libelle near you, ask its owner to show it to you and let
you sit in it with a parachute on. If the cockpit feels too narrow, try
adjusting your position so your shoulders are under the rails. If that
works, fine.

If you can't get comfortable, then look for another type of glider.

Bottom line: ask to sit in anything you'd like to buy. If you can't get
comfortable in it, go and look for another type of glider. If its a type
you haven't sat in before and its owner won't let you sit in his glider,
move on.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Sun, 19 Nov 2017 15:50:01 -0800, Scott Williams wrote:

On Sunday, November 19, 2017 at 3:54:35 PM UTC-6, FNQ Mark wrote:
On Monday, 20 November 2017 07:56:29 UTC+11, flgliderpilot wrote:
The problem with 1-26 is that you will have to be catching every
thermal ahead of you or you
will have to hurry back to the last one to prevent to be landing
out. You will land out with 1-26 a lot and with that the safe 1-26
has a risk factor. Go for something better performance. The Libelle:
My shoulder with is 19" and I cannot fit in the Libelle 201, however
if you have 17.5"
will work for you. There is lots of leg room in the Libelle, a 6ft
3" tall person would fit in. There is one for sale in St. Louis for
$9500 (Wings and Wheels) with TWO trailers, (open and closed), has
great vario, new canopy..... It is a nice glider and the seller is
super nice.

True, this described my silver distance attempts exactly. I'd do
2/3's of the triangle and get stuck in a weak thermal trying over and
over to get to the next thermal anywhere up wind. I'd have to scurry
back re-gain altitude over until the thermal would break up and I'd
land out. The challenge was of course fun at first but the cost of
tow plane retrievals started to add up and take the joy out of it.
But, I hadn't given up.

I may not actually fit in a Libelle... only 5'4 and around 200
pounds. Not all that fat but stocky and wide (and add parachute).

Then go for a Hornet (H206). Armchair cockpit, inflight adjustable
seatback and rudder pedals. Lots of room. Goes just a bit better than a
Libelle and and is even easier to rig, also has a T Tail. Support for
this old line of gliders by Glasfaser is nothing short of superb.

I've never been around either Hornets or libelles, but I'm 6'2" 245lbs,
and I love my standard cirrus.
Scott

Libelle max seat weight is 110 kg, so you would be pushing the limit, and
how its distributed would have a major effect on whether you'd be
comfortable in a Libelle. Please treat this as advice to the OP, not
criticism!

I've sat in a late model Std Cirrus (one with elevators, not an all-
flying tailplane), but never had the opportunity to fly one.

I'm really pleased to hear that you like your Std Cirrus: it seems we're
both happy campers in our respective mounts.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

There could be a Club Libelle for sale at my club near Toronto if that is of interest to anyone. Was refinished about 10 years ago and has not flown more than a couple of hours since then. Not currently listed and I don't own it, I just know the owner could be convinced to sell it if someone asked..

I enjoyed watching your videos, Tom. Hope to see some new ones of you flying your new glider!