ADS-B Update

It must be time for some more ADS-B posts, either that or we can talk about PW5 :-)

With the ~$350 street price Trig TN72 GPS source now available in the USA I wanted to revisit my understanding of the situation with ADS-B Out in gliders. I wrote a forum post for local Northern California pilots but it probably helps lots of other folks in the USA. See https://www.williamssoaring.com/news...er-this-Winter

---

And specifically I want to correct some doubt/misinformation I've helped spread here before about the Trig TN72 GPS source when it was first announced.. The TN72 is either (depending on how it is configured in the paired transponder) a:

1. TABS/TSO-C199 GPS source (with SIL=1)

*or*

2. A "meets performance requirement of TSO-C145c" GPS source (language I prefer, although Trig may say it differently) (with SIL=3)

(OK the TN72 can also do plain NMEA (with SIL=0), but that's not intersting here).

A little more details and the implications of this is described in post linked to above.

It would be great for folks doing 1090ES Out installs to share their experiences. Here, or contact me directly,

I am happy to try to answer questions.

I'm also planning to give a few talks on ADS-B (and FLARM and Transponders) over the next few months, certainly on the West Coast, details later.

Darryl

On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 4:48:05 AM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:
It must be time for some more ADS-B posts, either that or we can talk about PW5 :-)

With the ~$350 street price Trig TN72 GPS source now available in the USA I wanted to revisit my understanding of the situation with ADS-B Out in gliders. I wrote a forum post for local Northern California pilots but it probably helps lots of other folks in the USA. See https://www.williamssoaring..com/new...er-this-Winter

---

And specifically I want to correct some doubt/misinformation I've helped spread here before about the Trig TN72 GPS source when it was first announced. The TN72 is either (depending on how it is configured in the paired transponder) a:

1. TABS/TSO-C199 GPS source (with SIL=1)

*or*

2. A "meets performance requirement of TSO-C145c" GPS source (language I prefer, although Trig may say it differently) (with SIL=3)

(OK the TN72 can also do plain NMEA (with SIL=0), but that's not intersting here).

A little more details and the implications of this is described in post linked to above.

It would be great for folks doing 1090ES Out installs to share their experiences. Here, or contact me directly,

I am happy to try to answer questions.

I'm also planning to give a few talks on ADS-B (and FLARM and Transponders) over the next few months, certainly on the West Coast, details later.

Darryl

Will you be at the Reno Convention? Seems to be a good time and interested crowd...

On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 4:43:54 AM UTC-8, Dan Daly wrote:
On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 4:48:05 AM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:
It must be time for some more ADS-B posts, either that or we can talk about PW5 :-)

With the ~$350 street price Trig TN72 GPS source now available in the USA I wanted to revisit my understanding of the situation with ADS-B Out in gliders. I wrote a forum post for local Northern California pilots but it probably helps lots of other folks in the USA. See https://www.williamssoaring.com/news...er-this-Winter

---

And specifically I want to correct some doubt/misinformation I've helped spread here before about the Trig TN72 GPS source when it was first announced. The TN72 is either (depending on how it is configured in the paired transponder) a:

1. TABS/TSO-C199 GPS source (with SIL=1)

*or*

2. A "meets performance requirement of TSO-C145c" GPS source (language I prefer, although Trig may say it differently) (with SIL=3)

(OK the TN72 can also do plain NMEA (with SIL=0), but that's not intersting here).

A little more details and the implications of this is described in post linked to above.

It would be great for folks doing 1090ES Out installs to share their experiences. Here, or contact me directly,

I am happy to try to answer questions.

I'm also planning to give a few talks on ADS-B (and FLARM and Transponders) over the next few months, certainly on the West Coast, details later.

Darryl

Will you be at the Reno Convention? Seems to be a good time and interested crowd...

I will have the TN72 and TA70 at the Reno SSA 2018 convention.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

http://www.craggyaero.com/trig.htm

On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 4:43:54 AM UTC-8, Dan Daly wrote:
On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 4:48:05 AM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:
It must be time for some more ADS-B posts, either that or we can talk about PW5 :-)

With the ~$350 street price Trig TN72 GPS source now available in the USA I wanted to revisit my understanding of the situation with ADS-B Out in gliders. I wrote a forum post for local Northern California pilots but it probably helps lots of other folks in the USA. See https://www.williamssoaring.com/news...er-this-Winter

---

And specifically I want to correct some doubt/misinformation I've helped spread here before about the Trig TN72 GPS source when it was first announced. The TN72 is either (depending on how it is configured in the paired transponder) a:

1. TABS/TSO-C199 GPS source (with SIL=1)

*or*

2. A "meets performance requirement of TSO-C145c" GPS source (language I prefer, although Trig may say it differently) (with SIL=3)

(OK the TN72 can also do plain NMEA (with SIL=0), but that's not intersting here).

A little more details and the implications of this is described in post linked to above.

It would be great for folks doing 1090ES Out installs to share their experiences. Here, or contact me directly,

I am happy to try to answer questions.

I'm also planning to give a few talks on ADS-B (and FLARM and Transponders) over the next few months, certainly on the West Coast, details later.

Darryl

Will you be at the Reno Convention? Seems to be a good time and interested crowd...

i will be at the SSA Reno Convention and that is one of the locations I'm looking at giving a talk, maybe with some other presenters, details later.

Also happy to meet offline there to talk about what folks are doing and and to try to answer questions. Part of all this is just as things have now got very real with the TN72 available I'm starting to hear old and new questions over again, some new "interesting" ideas how ADS-B works, or confusion about TABS vs. a 2020 complaint install, etc..

On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 1:48:05 AM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
It must be time for some more ADS-B posts, either that or we can talk about PW5 :-)

With the ~$350 street price Trig TN72 GPS source now available in the USA I wanted to revisit my understanding of the situation with ADS-B Out in gliders. I wrote a forum post for local Northern California pilots but it probably helps lots of other folks in the USA. See https://www.williamssoaring..com/new...er-this-Winter

---

And specifically I want to correct some doubt/misinformation I've helped spread here before about the Trig TN72 GPS source when it was first announced. The TN72 is either (depending on how it is configured in the paired transponder) a:

1. TABS/TSO-C199 GPS source (with SIL=1)

*or*

2. A "meets performance requirement of TSO-C145c" GPS source (language I prefer, although Trig may say it differently) (with SIL=3)

(OK the TN72 can also do plain NMEA (with SIL=0), but that's not intersting here).

A little more details and the implications of this is described in post linked to above.

It would be great for folks doing 1090ES Out installs to share their experiences. Here, or contact me directly,

I am happy to try to answer questions.

I'm also planning to give a few talks on ADS-B (and FLARM and Transponders) over the next few months, certainly on the West Coast, details later.

Darryl

Regarding the Reno Class B airspace: It was my understanding that a glider can overfly it above 10,000 ft, and a transponder is only required below 10,000 (and ATC clearance below 8400). I can't see where the regulations have changed that for ADS-B?

It's too bad the FAA saw fit to screw certified gliders - limiting the compliance they sought.

Another detail: all the antennas I have seen thus far are suitable for bolting to the side of a DC-3. Do you know of any option that does not involve a loss of 5 points L/D? (I guess the huge one could be mounted indoors under a transparent area.)

On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 9:54:46 AM UTC-8, jfitch wrote:
On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 1:48:05 AM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
It must be time for some more ADS-B posts, either that or we can talk about PW5 :-)

With the ~$350 street price Trig TN72 GPS source now available in the USA I wanted to revisit my understanding of the situation with ADS-B Out in gliders. I wrote a forum post for local Northern California pilots but it probably helps lots of other folks in the USA. See https://www.williamssoaring.com/news...er-this-Winter

---

And specifically I want to correct some doubt/misinformation I've helped spread here before about the Trig TN72 GPS source when it was first announced. The TN72 is either (depending on how it is configured in the paired transponder) a:

1. TABS/TSO-C199 GPS source (with SIL=1)

*or*

2. A "meets performance requirement of TSO-C145c" GPS source (language I prefer, although Trig may say it differently) (with SIL=3)

(OK the TN72 can also do plain NMEA (with SIL=0), but that's not intersting here).

A little more details and the implications of this is described in post linked to above.

It would be great for folks doing 1090ES Out installs to share their experiences. Here, or contact me directly,

I am happy to try to answer questions.

I'm also planning to give a few talks on ADS-B (and FLARM and Transponders) over the next few months, certainly on the West Coast, details later.

Darryl

Regarding the Reno Class B airspace: It was my understanding that a glider can overfly it above 10,000 ft, and a transponder is only required below 10,000 (and ATC clearance below 8400). I can't see where the regulations have changed that for ADS-B?

It's too bad the FAA saw fit to screw certified gliders - limiting the compliance they sought.

Another detail: all the antennas I have seen thus far are suitable for bolting to the side of a DC-3. Do you know of any option that does not involve a loss of 5 points L/D? (I guess the huge one could be mounted indoors under a transparent area.)

I am reminded of my own advice to never argue with Jon Fitch.

Yes you are correct, I got myself backwards thinking of SFO/SJC etc. within the SFO Mode C Veil which locks gliders from being anywhere above that airspace (and veil area) without a transponder (and after January 1 2020, a fully complaint ADS-B Out system). With bare Mode C airspace you get excluded up to 10,000'. I updated my post to clarify that.

The GPS antenna required for a full 2020 compliant install in a certified glider with a TN70 GPS is probably the TA70. We'll see as more of those installs get done. Trying to mount one on the glareshield may be an option. Other folks are looking at mounting that or similar antenna under their RF transparent turtle deck area. Something to discuss with your A&P IA. If you just want to add a TN72 for a TABS ADS-B Out install a certified glider I'd argue/hope it is just a minor modification, not requiring field approval. Discuss with you A&P IA.

....and more than that, I have the Mode C veil stuff wrong as well, thanks for David Anisman for reminding me of past FAA interpretation letters, clearly I made a mistake trying offer a quick hit at airspace stuff while talking about ADS-B. I've updated that post again :-(

I'll write up a separate post trying to get all the airspace stuff properly explained. It deserves some careful writing all in in one place. And I may get a letter off to the FAA to reconfirm again for ADS-B. But the big thing is previous FAA legal interpretation support you can be above any airspace (including within a Mode C veil) at 10,000' in a glider without a transponder and that interpretation should carry over to ADS-B Out after 2020. You can't be below 10,000' and above Class C airspace, that is one that catches some into needing full 2020 ADS-B Out requirements, another is obviously the big dogs who want to fly in Class A airspace after 2020.

No of course I'd hope pilots flying anywhere in or near a Mode C veil would voluntarily equip with transponders and increasingly with ADS-B out. The nice thing is TABS allows you to do that voluntarily at lower cost that full 2020 ADS-B compliance, including using a Trig TT21 transponder (without upgrading it to a TT22) and a TN72 $350 GPS.

My headache is back.

On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 12:54:46 PM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 1:48:05 AM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
It must be time for some more ADS-B posts, either that or we can talk about PW5 :-)

With the ~$350 street price Trig TN72 GPS source now available in the USA I wanted to revisit my understanding of the situation with ADS-B Out in gliders. I wrote a forum post for local Northern California pilots but it probably helps lots of other folks in the USA. See https://www.williamssoaring.com/news...er-this-Winter

---

And specifically I want to correct some doubt/misinformation I've helped spread here before about the Trig TN72 GPS source when it was first announced. The TN72 is either (depending on how it is configured in the paired transponder) a:

1. TABS/TSO-C199 GPS source (with SIL=1)

*or*

2. A "meets performance requirement of TSO-C145c" GPS source (language I prefer, although Trig may say it differently) (with SIL=3)

(OK the TN72 can also do plain NMEA (with SIL=0), but that's not intersting here).

A little more details and the implications of this is described in post linked to above.

It would be great for folks doing 1090ES Out installs to share their experiences. Here, or contact me directly,

I am happy to try to answer questions.

I'm also planning to give a few talks on ADS-B (and FLARM and Transponders) over the next few months, certainly on the West Coast, details later.

Darryl

Regarding the Reno Class B airspace: It was my understanding that a glider can overfly it above 10,000 ft, and a transponder is only required below 10,000 (and ATC clearance below 8400). I can't see where the regulations have changed that for ADS-B?

It's too bad the FAA saw fit to screw certified gliders - limiting the compliance they sought.

Another detail: all the antennas I have seen thus far are suitable for bolting to the side of a DC-3. Do you know of any option that does not involve a loss of 5 points L/D? (I guess the huge one could be mounted indoors under a transparent area.)

I think, the only issue is that Reno is not a class B airspace.

On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 2:55:00 PM UTC-8, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 12:54:46 PM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 1:48:05 AM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
It must be time for some more ADS-B posts, either that or we can talk about PW5 :-)

With the ~$350 street price Trig TN72 GPS source now available in the USA I wanted to revisit my understanding of the situation with ADS-B Out in gliders. I wrote a forum post for local Northern California pilots but it probably helps lots of other folks in the USA. See https://www.williamssoaring.com/news...er-this-Winter

---

And specifically I want to correct some doubt/misinformation I've helped spread here before about the Trig TN72 GPS source when it was first announced. The TN72 is either (depending on how it is configured in the paired transponder) a:

1. TABS/TSO-C199 GPS source (with SIL=1)

*or*

2. A "meets performance requirement of TSO-C145c" GPS source (language I prefer, although Trig may say it differently) (with SIL=3)

(OK the TN72 can also do plain NMEA (with SIL=0), but that's not intersting here).

A little more details and the implications of this is described in post linked to above.

It would be great for folks doing 1090ES Out installs to share their experiences. Here, or contact me directly,

I am happy to try to answer questions.

I'm also planning to give a few talks on ADS-B (and FLARM and Transponders) over the next few months, certainly on the West Coast, details later..

Darryl

Regarding the Reno Class B airspace: It was my understanding that a glider can overfly it above 10,000 ft, and a transponder is only required below 10,000 (and ATC clearance below 8400). I can't see where the regulations have changed that for ADS-B?

It's too bad the FAA saw fit to screw certified gliders - limiting the compliance they sought.

Another detail: all the antennas I have seen thus far are suitable for bolting to the side of a DC-3. Do you know of any option that does not involve a loss of 5 points L/D? (I guess the huge one could be mounted indoors under a transparent area.)

I think, the only issue is that Reno is not a class B airspace.

B, C, what's in a letter? . Now personally, I think the PW5 is a fine little glider other than it doesn't penetrate well and its easy to confuse the canopy release with the tow release.

On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 2:16:03 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
...and more than that, I have the Mode C veil stuff wrong as well, thanks for David Anisman for reminding me of past FAA interpretation letters, clearly I made a mistake trying offer a quick hit at airspace stuff while talking about ADS-B. I've updated that post again :-(

I'll write up a separate post trying to get all the airspace stuff properly explained. It deserves some careful writing all in in one place. And I may get a letter off to the FAA to reconfirm again for ADS-B. But the big thing is previous FAA legal interpretation support you can be above any airspace (including within a Mode C veil) at 10,000' in a glider without a transponder and that interpretation should carry over to ADS-B Out after 2020. You can't be below 10,000' and above Class C airspace, that is one that catches some into needing full 2020 ADS-B Out requirements, another is obviously the big dogs who want to fly in Class A airspace after 2020.

No of course I'd hope pilots flying anywhere in or near a Mode C veil would voluntarily equip with transponders and increasingly with ADS-B out. The nice thing is TABS allows you to do that voluntarily at lower cost that full 2020 ADS-B compliance, including using a Trig TT21 transponder (without upgrading it to a TT22) and a TN72 $350 GPS.

My headache is back.

So, now I can have an ADS-B compliant system using my TT21? When did that change?

Tom