Cheap sailplanes

The 'which glider should we make cheaply' , 'glider classes' and some of
the traditional 'winter threads' seem to be based on the premise that if we
could build a 40:1 sailplane for some nominal amount then the steady decline
in worldwide sailplane pilot numbers can be stemmed.

I am yet to be convinced that aircraft cost is the major threshold to entry
into the sport of soaring. I remain firmly convinced that even if we came up
with a near zero cost aircraft we would do little more than temporarily halt
the decline.

In the UK annual membership of a golf club costs about the same as joining a
gliding club and flying club ships for the same period.

Ditto for a dinghy sailing club - based on joining a club and renting
dingies.

Our club runs a 'scholarship' incentive for a number of student pilots each
year, basically they fly for free, their bills being carried by the rest of
the membership. We don't have hundreds of applicants for the scholarships,
just sufficient.

Most operations have a continuous stream of intro riders, the conversion
rate to sailplane pilots is astonishingly low though, in the order of a few
percent.

Todays youth have more disposable income than most of us could ever have
dreamed of at their age and in the future they are likely to have more
leisure time and even more money. Flying has to become something that
youngsters 'want to do' it has to become cool. Rather than sticking with the
old way of doing things perhaps we should fire every club committee member
on the planet over 30 and let the youngsters with backwards baseball caps,
wrap around shades and baggy pants drag soaring into the 21st century. Us
old farts are not doing too good a job of stewardship if you ask me.

We need a new approach.

Ian

"tango4" wrote in message
...
The 'which glider should we make cheaply' , 'glider classes' and some of
the traditional 'winter threads' seem to be based on the premise that if
we
could build a 40:1 sailplane for some nominal amount then the steady
decline
in worldwide sailplane pilot numbers can be stemmed.

I am yet to be convinced that aircraft cost is the major threshold to
entry
into the sport of soaring. I remain firmly convinced that even if we came
up
with a near zero cost aircraft we would do little more than temporarily
halt
the decline.

In the UK annual membership of a golf club costs about the same as joining
a
gliding club and flying club ships for the same period.

Ditto for a dinghy sailing club - based on joining a club and renting
dingies.

Our club runs a 'scholarship' incentive for a number of student pilots
each
year, basically they fly for free, their bills being carried by the rest
of
the membership. We don't have hundreds of applicants for the scholarships,
just sufficient.

Most operations have a continuous stream of intro riders, the conversion
rate to sailplane pilots is astonishingly low though, in the order of a
few
percent.

Todays youth have more disposable income than most of us could ever have
dreamed of at their age and in the future they are likely to have more
leisure time and even more money. Flying has to become something that
youngsters 'want to do' it has to become cool. Rather than sticking with
the
old way of doing things perhaps we should fire every club committee member
on the planet over 30 and let the youngsters with backwards baseball caps,
wrap around shades and baggy pants drag soaring into the 21st century. Us
old farts are not doing too good a job of stewardship if you ask me.

We need a new approach.

Ian


I'll second that.

Maybe take a look at what the Europeans are doing. They seem to attract a
lot of youth to soaring.

Bill Daniels

I absolutely agree with you.
There is a great market out there for any budget above $2-3000, and all this
2price for racing" stuff isn't interesting to at least 95% of the soaring
population.
And in Europe, gliding for youngster asks for a budget very much like
skiing, horse riding, small motorcycles or whatever a 16 years old fancies
to do (and it's those 16 years old kid who are the future of soaring, not
any of those 50-years-old-catching-up-with-their-dreams folks) and gets the
money for anyways.

As you said, we need a new approach - at least the ration "airborne
time/time running around on the field" has to be greatly improved, and those
"because-we-have-done-it-like-this-for-the-last-fifty-years" farts have to
be dumped...

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"tango4" a écrit dans le message de news:
...
The 'which glider should we make cheaply' , 'glider classes' and some of
the traditional 'winter threads' seem to be based on the premise that if
we could build a 40:1 sailplane for some nominal amount then the steady
decline in worldwide sailplane pilot numbers can be stemmed.

I am yet to be convinced that aircraft cost is the major threshold to
entry into the sport of soaring. I remain firmly convinced that even if we
came up with a near zero cost aircraft we would do little more than
temporarily halt the decline.

In the UK annual membership of a golf club costs about the same as joining
a gliding club and flying club ships for the same period.

Ditto for a dinghy sailing club - based on joining a club and renting
dingies.

Our club runs a 'scholarship' incentive for a number of student pilots
each year, basically they fly for free, their bills being carried by the
rest of the membership. We don't have hundreds of applicants for the
scholarships, just sufficient.

Most operations have a continuous stream of intro riders, the conversion
rate to sailplane pilots is astonishingly low though, in the order of a
few percent.

Todays youth have more disposable income than most of us could ever have
dreamed of at their age and in the future they are likely to have more
leisure time and even more money. Flying has to become something that
youngsters 'want to do' it has to become cool. Rather than sticking with
the old way of doing things perhaps we should fire every club committee
member on the planet over 30 and let the youngsters with backwards
baseball caps, wrap around shades and baggy pants drag soaring into the
21st century. Us old farts are not doing too good a job of stewardship if
you ask me.

We need a new approach.

Ian

Bert Willing wrote:
I absolutely agree with you.
There is a great market out there for any budget above $2-3000, and all this
2price for racing" stuff isn't interesting to at least 95% of the soaring
population.
And in Europe, gliding for youngster asks for a budget very much like
skiing, horse riding, small motorcycles or whatever a 16 years old fancies
to do (and it's those 16 years old kid who are the future of soaring, not
any of those 50-years-old-catching-up-with-their-dreams folks) and gets the
money for anyways.

And you live in a completely unrealistic world. In our world in Europe,
the vast majority of youngsters don't have the money for skiing, horse
riding, etc. Anyways my kids didn't have the money to do anything of
that sort, and still i have a reasonably good job, and so does my wife.
You should stop thinking anyone is a medical doctor or a lawyer earning
several hundred thousand dollars a year. Another thing i can add is that
when i was young myself i could afford flying gliders, and even power
flying. Things have considerably degraded, and your arguments that even
with zero cost, gliding would continue do decline is complete bull****.



--

Michel TALON

"Bert Willing" wrote in
message ...
I absolutely agree with you.
There is a great market out there for any budget above $2-3000, and all
this 2price for racing" stuff isn't interesting to at least 95% of the
soaring population.
And in Europe, gliding for youngster asks for a budget very much like
skiing, horse riding, small motorcycles or whatever a 16 years old fancies
to do (and it's those 16 years old kid who are the future of soaring, not
any of those 50-years-old-catching-up-with-their-dreams folks) and gets
the money for anyways.

As you said, we need a new approach - at least the ration "airborne
time/time running around on the field" has to be greatly improved, and
those "because-we-have-done-it-like-this-for-the-last-fifty-years" farts
have to be dumped...

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"tango4" a écrit dans le message de news:
...
The 'which glider should we make cheaply' , 'glider classes' and some of
the traditional 'winter threads' seem to be based on the premise that if
we could build a 40:1 sailplane for some nominal amount then the steady
decline in worldwide sailplane pilot numbers can be stemmed.

I am yet to be convinced that aircraft cost is the major threshold to
entry into the sport of soaring. I remain firmly convinced that even if
we came up with a near zero cost aircraft we would do little more than
temporarily halt the decline.

In the UK annual membership of a golf club costs about the same as
joining a gliding club and flying club ships for the same period.

Ditto for a dinghy sailing club - based on joining a club and renting
dingies.

Our club runs a 'scholarship' incentive for a number of student pilots
each year, basically they fly for free, their bills being carried by the
rest of the membership. We don't have hundreds of applicants for the
scholarships, just sufficient.

Most operations have a continuous stream of intro riders, the conversion
rate to sailplane pilots is astonishingly low though, in the order of a
few percent.

Todays youth have more disposable income than most of us could ever have
dreamed of at their age and in the future they are likely to have more
leisure time and even more money. Flying has to become something that
youngsters 'want to do' it has to become cool. Rather than sticking with
the old way of doing things perhaps we should fire every club committee
member on the planet over 30 and let the youngsters with backwards
baseball caps, wrap around shades and baggy pants drag soaring into the
21st century. Us old farts are not doing too good a job of stewardship if
you ask me.

We need a new approach.

Ian







Put the gin and tonic down sweetie and join the real world, gliding is VERY
frustrating, we all dont have thermals at our beck and call. The last three
years have been abizmal for flying. I have to travel 50 miles to the club so
if ti's not a decent day there are other thing to do that can take
precedent. Our club is one of the least expensive in the UK but our
membership is dropping and it's all down to the lousey weather we've been
having. Mosxt young people get their thrils from two or four wheels, where
you just get in and turn the key and off you go. Instant gratification is
what keeps the young comming back for more, you don't get that at a gliding
club, until you can fly solo!!!

Peter.

Pilatus B4

Interesting argument. Also interesting responses some of which have nothing
to do with your original post. Must just be the grumpy winter lurkers.

I agree with you. Soaring has to be "cool" again in order to have it
survive. I'm not sure that reducing the costs somewhat wouldn't help but
nevertheless that alone will not save it.

It is an instant gratification world out there. Why should a kid spend
countless hours learning how to do something and paying the dues by watching
others do it in front of them when they can get out the X-box or Gameboy and
go at it with minimal instruction, cost or delay?

Soaring is not much of a spectator sport but one small part of the
visibility has been taken away in the name of safety (aka liability) in the
US by a push to totally abolish low finishes. It is clear with the sold out
status of the UK Smokin Vids and the fact that the UK Junior Soaring Team
has so much fun with these finishes that it is interesting to young pilots
and spectators. I'm not advocating a "Redbull" type of approach to it but
the safety/liability issue has grown out of control in the US. For some
reason soaring has attracted more than its share of curmudgeons. Sports
like hang gliding with their speed courses for example, have taken the step
to make themselves more visible to the folks on the ground.

Casey Lenox
KC
Phoenix

"Peter Seddon" wrote in message
...

"Bert Willing" wrote in
message ...
I absolutely agree with you.
There is a great market out there for any budget above $2-3000, and all
this 2price for racing" stuff isn't interesting to at least 95% of the
soaring population.
And in Europe, gliding for youngster asks for a budget very much like
skiing, horse riding, small motorcycles or whatever a 16 years old
fancies
to do (and it's those 16 years old kid who are the future of soaring,
not
any of those 50-years-old-catching-up-with-their-dreams folks) and gets
the money for anyways.

As you said, we need a new approach - at least the ration "airborne
time/time running around on the field" has to be greatly improved, and
those "because-we-have-done-it-like-this-for-the-last-fifty-years" farts
have to be dumped...

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"tango4" a écrit dans le message de news:
...
The 'which glider should we make cheaply' , 'glider classes' and some
of
the traditional 'winter threads' seem to be based on the premise that
if
we could build a 40:1 sailplane for some nominal amount then the steady
decline in worldwide sailplane pilot numbers can be stemmed.

I am yet to be convinced that aircraft cost is the major threshold to
entry into the sport of soaring. I remain firmly convinced that even if
we came up with a near zero cost aircraft we would do little more than
temporarily halt the decline.

In the UK annual membership of a golf club costs about the same as
joining a gliding club and flying club ships for the same period.

Ditto for a dinghy sailing club - based on joining a club and renting

dingies.

Our club runs a 'scholarship' incentive for a number of student pilots
each year, basically they fly for free, their bills being carried by
the
rest of the membership. We don't have hundreds of applicants for the
scholarships, just sufficient.

Most operations have a continuous stream of intro riders, the
conversion
rate to sailplane pilots is astonishingly low though, in the order of a
few percent.

Todays youth have more disposable income than most of us could ever
have
dreamed of at their age and in the future they are likely to have more
leisure time and even more money. Flying has to become something that
youngsters 'want to do' it has to become cool. Rather than sticking
with
the old way of doing things perhaps we should fire every club committee
member on the planet over 30 and let the youngsters with backwards
baseball caps, wrap around shades and baggy pants drag soaring into the
21st century. Us old farts are not doing too good a job of stewardship
if
you ask me.

We need a new approach.

Ian







Put the gin and tonic down sweetie and join the real world, gliding is
VERY
frustrating, we all dont have thermals at our beck and call. The last
three
years have been abizmal for flying. I have to travel 50 miles to the club
so
if ti's not a decent day there are other thing to do that can take
precedent. Our club is one of the least expensive in the UK but our
membership is dropping and it's all down to the lousey weather we've been
having. Mosxt young people get their thrils from two or four wheels, where
you just get in and turn the key and off you go. Instant gratification is
what keeps the young comming back for more, you don't get that at a
gliding
club, until you can fly solo!!!

Peter.

Pilatus B4



Go watch Hellingvliegen (Dune gliding) by Nistal Wloczysiak a 17 year old
Dutch Videographer. They winch launch an open cockpit T-31b in the dead of
winter to ridge soar the dunes on the Dutch coast. It's one beautiful
video. Weather isn't stopping youth from participating.

I see plenty of young people that LOVE gliding but can't afford it even with
their parents solid support.

We need to offer youth winch launch and other cost reduction avenues.
Wringing our hands and whining that the sky is falling isn't solving the
problem.

We also need to stop pigeonholing young people. They come in all levels of
interest. Not all of them are into video games and hot rods. A wonderful
few really love soaring.

We need to stop driving them away.

Bill Daniels

Peter Seddon wrote:
...
... gliding is VERY frustrating, we all dont have thermals at
our beck and call.
...

Very subjective. Two very pouplar sports in the USA, basket ball
and base ball seem to me much more frustrating than gliding, I can't
imagine how one can succeed in putting this big ball in this basket
or hitting this small one with this strange tool, nor what
satisfaction or enjoyment comes from that. On the other hand one
of my best satisfaction of this last summer came from a week day,
when I was at 25 km from the field together with another glider
which landed out a short time after, while I had a low save and another
one and another one, each time in very weak lift and vanishing after a
short time but each time allowing a little progress toward the home field,
until at 16 km I fell in a boomer and had the height for final
glide. I think a base ball or basket ball player can't understand
what satisfaction or enjoyment comes from that. This is why our
sport is declining.

I'll throw something else into the pot here. The golf club I'm a member of
has a golf gaademy on site. Youngsters of 15 to 16 with handicaps of 10 and
under can apply to join the academy for a year. At the end of which the can
acheive 2 'A' Level credits. These are accepted as credit towards a place at
university with a view to careers in sports management. Is this sort of
thing a possible source of future soaring pilots? How about gliding as an
optional high school subject?

Kids are under pressure to gain an education, offering a year of flying and
ground training with a tangible benefit in front of them may prove to be
irresistable and we all know that once the bug bites it bites hard. Flying
does offer benefits in terms of personal development, discipline, decision
making, planning. These could be sold as the foundation pieces to several
careers to education authorities if our controlling bodies were given the
brief to do so.

Ian

"tango4" wrote in message
...
The 'which glider should we make cheaply' , 'glider classes' and some of
the traditional 'winter threads' seem to be based on the premise that if
we
could build a 40:1 sailplane for some nominal amount then the steady
decline
in worldwide sailplane pilot numbers can be stemmed.

I think it might well lower the churn rate. Unlike the PW5, I think many
clubs would want one.

I am yet to be convinced that aircraft cost is the major threshold to
entry
into the sport of soaring. I remain firmly convinced that even if we came
up
with a near zero cost aircraft we would do little more than temporarily
halt
the decline.

I don't think so either. It's the effort involved. IIRC the economic input
to Maine(?) from snow mobiling activities is $800M/year. A couple of family
snow mobiles on a trailer give nearly instant thrills (and the possibility
of mayhem) without the effort of learning and licensing. In the summer,
substitute jet skis.

In the UK annual membership of a golf club costs about the same as joining
a
gliding club and flying club ships for the same period.

I think golfing here runs more than soaring, especially at the local country
clubs. They pay a lot for water.

Ditto for a dinghy sailing club - based on joining a club and renting
dingies.

Memberships on the few lakes we have locally are easily more than I spend on
soaring all year. But this is a desert and lakes are rare. Can't land a
float plane on water in Colorado either.

Our club runs a 'scholarship' incentive for a number of student pilots
each
year, basically they fly for free, their bills being carried by the rest
of
the membership. We don't have hundreds of applicants for the scholarships,
just sufficient.

Soaring scholarships. Interesting topic. I know of one glider club that
gave soaring scholarships, it generated several members from the local
school and parents, created animosity, but was, in the end, rather
unsuccessful in achieving the desired goals. It was also the organizational
effort of a single member, with funds from several members. That member was
taken out of soaring by his SO, and the program stagnated. Another club has
a performance based program. Apply, get accepted, work for credits, perform
or get the boot. By perform, get license, get commercial, give rides, get
instructor rating, instruct, be the future. I think this may be the better
way forward, a mentored, value-added approach.

Most operations have a continuous stream of intro riders, the conversion
rate to sailplane pilots is astonishingly low though, in the order of a
few
percent.

It's been my experience in two countries that people who take rides also are
likely to have taken a balloon flight, perhaps a dual parachute jump, and a
spin in on a performance race car track. They may have even take a glider
flight 20 years ago, but they are not prospects. Our 3-flight mini-course
acts as sort of a pre-screening process. Those who are really interested
try these. Unlike a power sampler, where a given result is repeatable, you
might need those three flights to set the hook. A single flight is
generally a bit of a blur. Our chief instructor thinks we should just give
the three lessons, but I think one flight should really be an extended
soaring opportunity. That's what brings them back. I'm the only exception
I know for sure. I took a one flight sampler 30 years ago, but the pilot
kept us up for 55mins in very marginal conditions. Had she other customers
waiting, we'd have been back sooner. Had it been a sled ride, I might never
have returned, however I'd already read of Striedeck's flight in NG and
Wolter's Once Upon a Thermal, so I was already a seeker. When I finally got
around to seeking training, I was attracted by a simple black on pink A4
poster in the RAF Mildenhall post office that stated simply, "If you can
drive a car, we reckon you can fly a glider", with a graphic of the SHK I
later flew.

Todays youth have more disposable income than most of us could ever have
dreamed of at their age and in the future they are likely to have more
leisure time and even more money. Flying has to become something that
youngsters 'want to do' it has to become cool. Rather than sticking with
the
old way of doing things perhaps we should fire every club committee member
on the planet over 30 and let the youngsters with backwards baseball caps,
wrap around shades and baggy pants drag soaring into the 21st century. Us
old farts are not doing too good a job of stewardship if you ask me.

Flying has also been de-mystified in the jet era, as many of these same
youth have flown internationally. Many tune into the movies and never even
look out of the window. However, yes, clubs can be run be, and are, run by
their junior members.

We need a new approach.

Old fart greybeard, with glider on display, jumps out in front of a group of
likely looking college undergrad snowboarders, points, and states
emphatically, "Soaring will change your life". At least one of that group,
after going from ab-initio to switched on glider instructor, has now
completed BPT for the USN and is headed for next school and carrier duty.
He has never forgotten that day, and soaring has changed his life.

Frank Whiteley