Ventus bT/cT comparison

Hi everyone,

I fly a Discus bT at the moment and absolutely love it. However, I
am thinking of upgrading to a flapped turbo in the next one or two
seasons and the Ventus bT/cT would seem to be the natural
choice.

I have heard conflicting opinions about the various models:

i) The bT has handling issues and the cT was designed to
overcome these issues, with a bigger rudder and some other
changes. The cT is the model to go for.

ii) The cT has handling issues, can be difficult to bleed approach
energy due to the brake configuration and was not a popular
model, which is why there are so few of them around. The bT is
the model to go for.

iii) The bT and cT perform relatively poorly in 15m mode rather
than their 16.6m (bT) and 17.6m (cT) modes, so competing in
15m mode is not recommended.

Any thoughts much appreciated.

Cheers,
Jim

Can't speak for the turbo versions, but for the pure glider option the
problem with the Ventus B in 16.6 mode was that you couldn't carry enough
water to get it going even here in the UK.

(Not sure how much water the Turbo versions can carry - do they have same
reduced all up weight as Discus T)

The long wings on both B & C are great for weak wave and long glides at the
end of the day. The Turbo will let you motor into the stronger wave & get
you home at the end of the day in 15m mode

Winglets improved any handling "issues" with Ventus B

Best option is to fly in 15m mode with winglets

Both Ventus B & C are less forgiving around the stall than your Discus so
you probably need to be more cautious when picking fields / starting the
engine.

The reason there are fewer Ventus Cs around is mainly 'cos the LS6 came
along and then the V2.

All depends on what you're flying against. You're unlikely to outrun an LS6
or V2, in absolute terms & if you're flying handicapped comps then stick
with the Discus!!



PF




At 12:46 17 April 2012, Jim Pengelly wrote:
Hi everyone,

I fly a Discus bT at the moment and absolutely love it. However, I
am thinking of upgrading to a flapped turbo in the next one or two
seasons and the Ventus bT/cT would seem to be the natural
choice.

I have heard conflicting opinions about the various models:

i) The bT has handling issues and the cT was designed to
overcome these issues, with a bigger rudder and some other
changes. The cT is the model to go for.

ii) The cT has handling issues, can be difficult to bleed approach
energy due to the brake configuration and was not a popular
model, which is why there are so few of them around. The bT is
the model to go for.

iii) The bT and cT perform relatively poorly in 15m mode rather
than their 16.6m (bT) and 17.6m (cT) modes, so competing in
15m mode is not recommended.

Any thoughts much appreciated.

Cheers,
Jim

I'd say i) is the most correct of the statements listed. The cT with
landing flap and full brake comes down rather steeply, just point at the
ground ... not recommending that though.

The cT does have the restricted 425 KG max mass when the turbo is
installed, as does the bT. With the engine removed the max weight goes back
up to 500kg, find one with a carbon fuselage if possible, saves 10 kg on
the weight plan.

I'm on my second cT now, great performance in 17.6, probably the best value
L/D you can buy.

In 15m mode with turbo installed the wing loading could be described as
high, but if you live in a country with big thermals that's not a worry.

Somehow it likes landing at 60ish knots rather than the yellow triangle
speed.

Try one if you can get a flight.

i) The bT has handling issues and the cT was designed to
overcome these issues, with a bigger rudder and some other
changes. The cT is the model to go for.

Dne úterý, 17. dubna 2012 16:26:25 UTC+2 Peter F napsal(a):
..
..
..... The reason there are fewer Ventus Cs around is mainly 'cos the LS6 came along and then the V2...
..
..

Actually, the ratio of manufactured Ventus C's versus B's is about 50/50,
with even slight favor to C's, see http://rcawsey.co.uk/shirth.html

On Tue, 17 Apr 2012 12:46:24 +0000, Jim Pengelly
wrote:

Hi everyone,

I fly a Discus bT at the moment and absolutely love it. However, I
am thinking of upgrading to a flapped turbo in the next one or two
seasons and the Ventus bT/cT would seem to be the natural
choice.

I have heard conflicting opinions about the various models:

i) The bT has handling issues and the cT was designed to
overcome these issues, with a bigger rudder and some other
changes. The cT is the model to go for.

ii) The cT has handling issues, can be difficult to bleed approach
energy due to the brake configuration and was not a popular
model, which is why there are so few of them around. The bT is
the model to go for.

iii) The bT and cT perform relatively poorly in 15m mode rather
than their 16.6m (bT) and 17.6m (cT) modes, so competing in
15m mode is not recommended.

Any thoughts much appreciated.

Cheers,
Jim


I'll offer a few comments. My Ventus cT is a 1987 model and I've got
about 1500 hrs on the ship over the past 13 years.

-- One possible reason for the apparently small number of C models in
the US is that at least the early C's were brought into the US as B
models, and then re-placarded as a C model. My '87 cT has the original
B placard still in place, but X'd out with the new C placard mounted
below it. I notice that a number of Ventus B models in the FAA
database are in fact C models whose owners never updated the FAA
records.

-- I've got no complaints regarding the handling of the Ventus C,
thought I fly almost exclusively with the 17.6m tips. I've noticed no
issues with handling with the 15m winglets, however.

-- Unfortunately I have never had to opportunity to fly a Ventus B.
The only unbiased comment I can quote is from Derek Piggott in the Dec
1992 / Jan 1993 Sailplane & Gliding issue.

"Whereas the earlier model has rather a reputation for stalling and
spinning if flown carelessly. the C model seemed a model of docility.
I frequently pulled into steep thermalling turns, getting down to well
below 40kt with only an obvious buffeting and sinking feeling clearly
indicating that this was far too slow. It did not once drop a wing
requiring any proper stall recovery. In spite of the extra wing span,
the rate of roll is excellent at all speeds and it is easy to fly
accurately rolling into and out of turns"

-- Max gross with or without the engine is 500kg. The issue with the
engine in place is the 255kg non-lifting limit. With the engine in
place, the pilot weight determines whether the max gross of 500kg or
the non-lifting limit of 255kg kicks in first. For my weight and 28
gal of water, I hit max gross just before I hit the non-lifting limit.
Bottom line, with the engine in place and ballasted to max gross, you
are at the same loading as without the engine, but you cannot dump
down to the same low loading as without the engine. With the engine
in, I can go from 10.1 lbs/ft2 max down to 7.9 lbs/ft2 min. Without
the engine, W/L ranges from the same 10.1 lbs/ft2 down to 7.2 lbs/ft2
(all with 17.6m span). The B model has the same issue and limitations.

-- For what its worth, only the C models were factory certified with
the 17.6m tips.

-- Regarding the air brakes, I have never found a situation where
landing flap and full dive brakes were inadaqute. That said, they
probably are not the equal of a PIK 20B or any other ship with full
90deg flaps (I've got about 2500 hrs in a 20B, before the Ventus).

Hope this helps your decision.

Bob

At 03:36 18 April 2012, Bob Gibbons wrote:
On Tue, 17 Apr 2012 12:46:24 +0000, Jim Pengelly
wrote:

Hi everyone,

I fly a Discus bT at the moment and absolutely love it.
However, I
am thinking of upgrading to a flapped turbo in the next one or
two
seasons and the Ventus bT/cT would seem to be the natural
choice.

I have heard conflicting opinions about the various models:

i) The bT has handling issues and the cT was designed to
overcome these issues, with a bigger rudder and some other
changes. The cT is the model to go for.

ii) The cT has handling issues, can be difficult to bleed
approach
energy due to the brake configuration and was not a popular
model, which is why there are so few of them around. The bT
is
the model to go for.

iii) The bT and cT perform relatively poorly in 15m mode rather
than their 16.6m (bT) and 17.6m (cT) modes, so competing in
15m mode is not recommended.

Any thoughts much appreciated.

Cheers,
Jim


I'll offer a few comments. My Ventus cT is a 1987 model and I've
got
about 1500 hrs on the ship over the past 13 years.

-- One possible reason for the apparently small number of C
models in
the US is that at least the early C's were brought into the US as
B
models, and then re-placarded as a C model. My '87 cT has the
original
B placard still in place, but X'd out with the new C placard
mounted
below it. I notice that a number of Ventus B models in the FAA
database are in fact C models whose owners never updated the
FAA
records.

-- I've got no complaints regarding the handling of the Ventus C,
thought I fly almost exclusively with the 17.6m tips. I've noticed
no
issues with handling with the 15m winglets, however.

-- Unfortunately I have never had to opportunity to fly a Ventus
B.

At 18:02 17 April 2012, John Ferguson wrote:
I'd say i) is the most correct of the statements listed. The cT with
landing flap and full brake comes down rather steeply, just point
at the
ground ... not recommending that though.

The cT does have the restricted 425 KG max mass when the
turbo is
installed, as does the bT. With the engine removed the max
weight goes back
up to 500kg, find one with a carbon fuselage if possible, saves
10 kg on
the weight plan.

I'm on my second cT now, great performance in 17.6, probably
the best value
L/D you can buy.

In 15m mode with turbo installed the wing loading could be
described as
high, but if you live in a country with big thermals that's not a
worry.

Somehow it likes landing at 60ish knots rather than the yellow
triangle
speed.

Try one if you can get a flight.

i) The bT has handling issues and the cT was designed to
overcome these issues, with a bigger rudder and some other
changes. The cT is the model to go for.




Everyone that has replied seems really happy with the cTs. I
think I'm going to get one if I can find the right one for the right
price. Any ideas on current values?

In the UK Discus bT go for as much as £49k, Ventus cT are less expensive,
probably because of the reputation. UK prices for Ventus cT is £42k to
£45k.

Hi Jim,

I can't add anything to the discussion for the turbo model but I have been flying the pure sailplane version Ventus C for about 6 years. The C model is as docile as can be imagined and the performance is great. Unless you want to compete in the 15 meter class, I can't ever imagine that you would fly it in other than the 17.5 meter configuration.

Bob
BV

Originally Posted by Bob Gibbons[_2_]

On Tue, 17 Apr 2012 12:46:24 +0000, Jim Pengelly
wrote:

Hi everyone,

I fly a Discus bT at the moment and absolutely love it. However, I
am thinking of upgrading to a flapped turbo in the next one or two
seasons and the Ventus bT/cT would seem to be the natural
choice.

I have heard conflicting opinions about the various models:

i) The bT has handling issues and the cT was designed to
overcome these issues, with a bigger rudder and some other
changes. The cT is the model to go for.

ii) The cT has handling issues, can be difficult to bleed approach
energy due to the brake configuration and was not a popular
model, which is why there are so few of them around. The bT is
the model to go for.

iii) The bT and cT perform relatively poorly in 15m mode rather
than their 16.6m (bT) and 17.6m (cT) modes, so competing in
15m mode is not recommended.

Any thoughts much appreciated.

Cheers,
Jim


I'll offer a few comments. My Ventus cT is a 1987 model and I've got
about 1500 hrs on the ship over the past 13 years.

-- One possible reason for the apparently small number of C models in
the US is that at least the early C's were brought into the US as B
models, and then re-placarded as a C model. My '87 cT has the original
B placard still in place, but X'd out with the new C placard mounted
below it. I notice that a number of Ventus B models in the FAA
database are in fact C models whose owners never updated the FAA
records.

-- I've got no complaints regarding the handling of the Ventus C,
thought I fly almost exclusively with the 17.6m tips. I've noticed no
issues with handling with the 15m winglets, however.

-- Unfortunately I have never had to opportunity to fly a Ventus B.
The only unbiased comment I can quote is from Derek Piggott in the Dec
1992 / Jan 1993 Sailplane & Gliding issue.

"Whereas the earlier model has rather a reputation for stalling and
spinning if flown carelessly. the C model seemed a model of docility.
I frequently pulled into steep thermalling turns, getting down to well
below 40kt with only an obvious buffeting and sinking feeling clearly
indicating that this was far too slow. It did not once drop a wing
requiring any proper stall recovery. In spite of the extra wing span,
the rate of roll is excellent at all speeds and it is easy to fly
accurately rolling into and out of turns"

-- Max gross with or without the engine is 500kg. The issue with the
engine in place is the 255kg non-lifting limit. With the engine in
place, the pilot weight determines whether the max gross of 500kg or
the non-lifting limit of 255kg kicks in first. For my weight and 28
gal of water, I hit max gross just before I hit the non-lifting limit.
Bottom line, with the engine in place and ballasted to max gross, you
are at the same loading as without the engine, but you cannot dump
down to the same low loading as without the engine. With the engine
in, I can go from 10.1 lbs/ft2 max down to 7.9 lbs/ft2 min. Without
the engine, W/L ranges from the same 10.1 lbs/ft2 down to 7.2 lbs/ft2
(all with 17.6m span). The B model has the same issue and limitations.

-- For what its worth, only the C models were factory certified with
the 17.6m tips.

-- Regarding the air brakes, I have never found a situation where
landing flap and full dive brakes were inadaqute. That said, they
probably are not the equal of a PIK 20B or any other ship with full
90deg flaps (I've got about 2500 hrs in a 20B, before the Ventus).

Hope this helps your decision.

Bob

Every Ventus cT manual that I have looked at says the max weight with the engine in is 430 kg regardless of the span. With the engine out, 500kg at 16.6. and 17.6m respectively

Cheers
Colin