Change training aircraft? C172* vs. PA28-*

Hi,

I am just finishing solo phase and have a long journey ahead. My
training waypoints are (god willing!) Private, IFR, and perhaps
Commercial and even CFI if I can keep building the skills and financing
the habit long enough to get on the other side of the checkbook.

Bottom line for now is that I am fast realizing the costs of getting
started and I wonder if it might be more efficient to switch from the
C172SP, which I love, but it is a little price; to a PA28-161 or 181.
The wet rates are generally quite a bit lower, at least at my home base,
and a couple of CFI's have mentioned that you can get more bang for your
buck in these airplanes.

For example, I've read:
---
What is your favorite aircraft to instruct in?
Reliable, and forgiving aircraft. Basic trainers a C-152, C172,
PA28-161, PA28-181. Remember the best combination for learning: Newer
aircraft and more experienced instructor. Older aircraft and newer
instructors are both riskier, in general.

What are your aircraft recommendations for a new student?
My own perspective: C-152 -- money saver(if your weigh less than
160lbs); PA28-161 or 181 -- least hours to get your Private Pilot
Certificate; C-172SP -- pricey, but new and nicely equipped; SR22 --
more expensive, but you get cutting edge technology and performance.
---

I have always had a fascination for low-wing airplanes, but what is the
consensus about a student switching during the post-solo, pre-cross
country stage of training? It is certainly wisest to solo in the plane
that one learns to fly sufficiently well to pass the solo phase checks;
however, I want to maximize the number of hours I am able to fly while
keeping costs reasonable, moving forward. Will I truly get more mileage
for my training dollar by changing now?

It would also be nice to learn the contemporary avionics at the same
time, which is one huge advantage of the 172SP's I have been flying.
The questions are, can these objectives be better (more cost
effectively) achieved in a 161 or 181? What are your thoughts on
cross-training or changing airplanes after solo but prior to that first
private certificate? Of course, if changing now would diminish the
development of the most proficient skills, it would not be worth any
cost savings, but I thought I would ask what others think before moving
forward from here.

Thank you in advance for any advice that you might have time to share.

Learn the latest & greatest avionics after you've learned to fly.

One big advantage of the low wing is being able to see the runway
during the turns in the pattern.

Just about everything else is a religious discussion.

On 21 Feb 2005 07:15:48 GMT, (Blanche Cohen)
wrote:

Learn the latest & greatest avionics after you've learned to fly.

One big advantage of the low wing is being able to see the runway
during the turns in the pattern.

Just about everything else is a religious discussion.

I trained on C150/152 then checked out in a C172 (not the latest :-) )
and found it required more force to hold up the nose on landing.
I now add 'slight' nose up trim just before the flare if I'm renting a
C172.

Mostly I fly a PA28 and find the low wing gives slight cushioning so
it can help make the landing softer. The nose is lower so just pitch
the to the end of the runway but make sure you don't land on the nose
wheel....!

It's the old argument again but my wife prefers the low wing. You keep
dry with the high wing but it's easier to climb into the low wing.
With the C172 you need to lift the wing slightly, before turning, to
check it's clear. With the low wing you're slightly blind to aircraft
under the wing.

I'd go for the cheapest.

David

"Blanche Cohen" wrote in message ...
Learn the latest & greatest avionics after you've learned to fly.

One big advantage of the low wing is being able to see the runway
during the turns in the pattern.

Just about everything else is a religious discussion.


One big advantage of the high wing is being able to see folks on long final during turns in the pattern...no religion
here ;-)

Just learn to fly and get your PPL. Fly what's cheap. You can
learn the fancy stuff as you work on your IR.


"Metavalent" wrote in message
.verio.net...
Hi,

I am just finishing solo phase and have a long journey ahead. My training
waypoints are (god willing!) Private, IFR, and perhaps Commercial and even
CFI if I can keep building the skills and financing the habit long enough
to get on the other side of the checkbook.

Bottom line for now is that I am fast realizing the costs of getting
started and I wonder if it might be more efficient to switch from the
C172SP, which I love, but it is a little price; to a PA28-161 or 181. The
wet rates are generally quite a bit lower, at least at my home base, and a
couple of CFI's have mentioned that you can get more bang for your buck in
these airplanes.

For example, I've read:
---
What is your favorite aircraft to instruct in?
Reliable, and forgiving aircraft. Basic trainers a C-152, C172,
PA28-161, PA28-181. Remember the best combination for learning: Newer
aircraft and more experienced instructor. Older aircraft and newer
instructors are both riskier, in general.

What are your aircraft recommendations for a new student?
My own perspective: C-152 -- money saver(if your weigh less than 160lbs);
PA28-161 or 181 -- least hours to get your Private Pilot Certificate;
C-172SP -- pricey, but new and nicely equipped; SR22 --
more expensive, but you get cutting edge technology and performance.
---

I have always had a fascination for low-wing airplanes, but what is the
consensus about a student switching during the post-solo, pre-cross
country stage of training? It is certainly wisest to solo in the plane
that one learns to fly sufficiently well to pass the solo phase checks;
however, I want to maximize the number of hours I am able to fly while
keeping costs reasonable, moving forward. Will I truly get more mileage
for my training dollar by changing now?

It would also be nice to learn the contemporary avionics at the same time,
which is one huge advantage of the 172SP's I have been flying. The
questions are, can these objectives be better (more cost effectively)
achieved in a 161 or 181? What are your thoughts on cross-training or
changing airplanes after solo but prior to that first private certificate?
Of course, if changing now would diminish the development of the most
proficient skills, it would not be worth any cost savings, but I thought I
would ask what others think before moving forward from here.

Thank you in advance for any advice that you might have time to share.

Do yourself a favor and finish your Private in the plane you soloed in.
Remember, your solo sign-off is a type rating! That means you will have
to be signed off for solo for each type of aircraft you will fly. C150
and C152 require a sign-off for each.

Once you have your PP certificate, then you can get checked out and fly
any other single engine aircraft.

Meanwhile, if you change over to a Piper Cherokee, you will have to
deal with fuel management, IN FLIGHT. You have to turn on/off a fuel
pump in the pattern, switching of tanks (can't select both, only left
or right or off). And you will have to re-learn to taxi and what the
sight picture is for landing.

Switching between a C150 and a C152 is pretty easy and I did that
during my training (and had to get a sign-off for both aircraft for
solo). I much preferred the C152 and took the check ride in it.

BTW - I own a PA28-180 today. When I bought it, I had about 200 hours
in Cessna hi-wings. Transition to the low wing Piper, in my opinion,
would have cost me another 5 hours minimum (for solo). Today I have
over 130 hours in the PA28, done in 18 months (the first 100 were done
in 7 months, but here in OH with all the nice winter weather and the
annual from hell...).

Later,
Steve.T
PP ASEL/Instrument

I did 99% of my private training in C172Ns ( with 1 flight in an SP
when all the N models were in the shop ). Even a change between old and
new cessnas had a huge difference on feel. Besides different numbers,
the new 172s feel more slippery and float a bit more, control feels are
lighter and have different systems and definitely new avionics. In my
opinion, you got plenty of other stuff to worry about during private
training than learning a new aircraft. As for avionics, learn to fly
the plane, learning to fiddle with the GPS can be saved for later. For
saving money though, if you're still at that early of a stage, if you
don't mind spending a lesson or 2 just to acustom yourself to a new
plane, it probably will save you dough in the long run.
These days, I fly our club's 78 archer II almost exclusively and I love
it. I got my archer II checkout a few months after I got my private.
Price wise, it's between the old 172s and the new 172s. It's faster
which is a plus for cross countries, in fact you get more dollars to
the mile than an old cessna at my club's rates. After flying low wings,
you'll never wanna fly a high wing again. Also, I much prefer the
mechanical over electric flaps. At my club at least, the pipers are in
way better shape and available more often than the old cessnas because
less student pilots fly them. As for training ( compared to old 172s at
least ), the archer is a tad less forgiving ( but still not hard ). The
flaps are way less dramatic than cessna barn doors. You need to watch
the airspeed a bit more. They float more in the flare. The controls are
a bit lighter. Piper I think calls it a "personal" aircraft not a
trainer. Also, I beat up the 172s pretty bad during training with some
really really bad landings and it took it just fine, I wouldn't be as
confident that a piper would take a student pilot's landing on a bad
day.

My opinion on planes:
old 172s: very forgiving, good for training, reasonably priced
152s: never flown em ( I'm too fat at 200 lbs :-( )
new 172s: spend the extra money (probably less for an old one) flying
an archer instead
old archers: good for cross country but old 172s are preferable for
training

hope ( but not sure :-) ) that helps, good luck
Omri

Metavalent wrote:
Hi,

I am just finishing solo phase and have a long journey ahead. My
training waypoints are (god willing!) Private, IFR, and perhaps
Commercial and even CFI if I can keep building the skills and
financing
the habit long enough to get on the other side of the checkbook.

Bottom line for now is that I am fast realizing the costs of getting
started and I wonder if it might be more efficient to switch from the

C172SP, which I love, but it is a little price; to a PA28-161 or 181.

The wet rates are generally quite a bit lower, at least at my home
base,
and a couple of CFI's have mentioned that you can get more bang for
your
buck in these airplanes.

For example, I've read:
---
What is your favorite aircraft to instruct in?
Reliable, and forgiving aircraft. Basic trainers a C-152, C172,
PA28-161, PA28-181. Remember the best combination for learning: Newer

aircraft and more experienced instructor. Older aircraft and newer
instructors are both riskier, in general.

What are your aircraft recommendations for a new student?
My own perspective: C-152 -- money saver(if your weigh less than
160lbs); PA28-161 or 181 -- least hours to get your Private Pilot
Certificate; C-172SP -- pricey, but new and nicely equipped; SR22 --
more expensive, but you get cutting edge technology and performance.
---

I have always had a fascination for low-wing airplanes, but what is
the
consensus about a student switching during the post-solo, pre-cross
country stage of training? It is certainly wisest to solo in the
plane
that one learns to fly sufficiently well to pass the solo phase
checks;
however, I want to maximize the number of hours I am able to fly
while
keeping costs reasonable, moving forward. Will I truly get more
mileage
for my training dollar by changing now?

It would also be nice to learn the contemporary avionics at the same
time, which is one huge advantage of the 172SP's I have been flying.
The questions are, can these objectives be better (more cost
effectively) achieved in a 161 or 181? What are your thoughts on
cross-training or changing airplanes after solo but prior to that
first
private certificate? Of course, if changing now would diminish the
development of the most proficient skills, it would not be worth any
cost savings, but I thought I would ask what others think before
moving
forward from here.

Thank you in advance for any advice that you might have time to
share.

I did 99% of my private training in C172Ns ( with 1 flight in an SP
when all the N models were in the shop ). Even a change between old and
new cessnas had a huge difference on feel. Besides different numbers,
the new 172s feel more slippery and float a bit more, control feels are
lighter and have different systems and definitely new avionics. In my
opinion, you got plenty of other stuff to worry about during private
training than learning a new aircraft. As for avionics, learn to fly
the plane, learning to fiddle with the GPS can be saved for later. For
saving money though, if you're still at that early of a stage, if you
don't mind spending a lesson or 2 just to acustom yourself to a new
plane, it probably will save you dough in the long run.
These days, I fly our club's 78 archer II almost exclusively and I love
it. I got my archer II checkout a few months after I got my private.
Price wise, it's between the old 172s and the new 172s. It's faster
which is a plus for cross countries, in fact you get more dollars to
the mile than an old cessna at my club's rates. After flying low wings,
you'll never wanna fly a high wing again. Also, I much prefer the
mechanical over electric flaps. At my club at least, the pipers are in
way better shape and available more often than the old cessnas because
less student pilots fly them. As for training ( compared to old 172s at
least ), the archer is a tad less forgiving ( but still not hard ). The
flaps are way less dramatic than cessna barn doors. You need to watch
the airspeed a bit more. They float more in the flare. The controls are
a bit lighter. Piper I think calls it a "personal" aircraft not a
trainer. Also, I beat up the 172s pretty bad during training with some
really really bad landings and it took it just fine, I wouldn't be as
confident that a piper would take a student pilot's landing on a bad
day.

My opinion on planes:
old 172s: very forgiving, good for training, reasonably priced
152s: never flown em ( I'm too fat at 200 lbs :-( )
new 172s: spend the extra money (probably less for an old one) flying
an archer instead
old archers: good for cross country but old 172s are preferable for
training

hope ( but not sure :-) ) that helps, good luck
Omri

In article ,
wrote:

I trained on C150/152 then checked out in a C172 (not the latest :-) )
and found it required more force to hold up the nose on landing.
I now add 'slight' nose up trim just before the flare if I'm renting a
C172.

The effect is even more pronounced on a 182, but I came to the
conclusion that trimming nose high is a Really Bad Idea because if you
have to go around you have to push the over pretty hard in order to
avoid a power on stall. If you forget, you're dead. Better to get a
set of weights and do curls so that you have the strength to pull the
yoke back hard enough to flare. IMHO.

As for the original question, again IMO, you'll get done faster if you
stick with what you started with. Other than that it doesn't really
matter, and if you're headed for more advanced training you'll want to
fly both types sooner or later anyway.

rg

One big advantage of the low wing is being able to see the runway
during the turns in the pattern.

One "Dis" advantage.. is its harder to check final for that guy doing a long
straight in approach, while turning .. the up wing is in the way..

both have pros and cons.. and both have taught many a pilot to fly safely..

BT