FAI ratifies records of illegal flights.

In the Dutch gliding records list, I found a flight, conducted in South
Africa that landed after the local official daylight time. For
ratification a flight must be conducted legaly, so I asked the Dutch NAC
for explanation. The responsible officer told me that a flight that
lands before 19:44:00 is still landing within the 43 th minute.
Interesting to know that the officer who told me that, was a Dutch
engineer working in a Dutch nuclear power station. So, if, all of a
sudden you do not hear anything from Holland anymore, you have a option
to think of.

I waited a few months, and was surprised to see that the FAI ratified
the record also as a African regional record. So I asked the responsible
officer of the FAI for a explanation and I was told that the observation
of the Official Observer regarding sunset time was leading. Of course
this is not true. The country where the flight is conducted issues the
official sunset time and the official daylight times.

After a few emails and not getting any answers, I dropped the case.
Then by coincidence, I met the responsible officer of the FAI at a
glider site and brought up the problem. He told me that for just a few
minutes to late, the FAI considered the flight as being still legal.

So, not South Africa is telling what illegal is in there country but the
FAI is.

Why am I telling this story? The main reason is that if somebody
claims a record and the Official Observer and the pilot himself sign the
claim form, they state that the flight was conducted in a legal way.. In
the mean time I spoke to a few OO's and none of them was prepared to
sign for such a flight. That means that different pilots are are being
treated unequally and that is, at least in my opinion, not fair. So I
asked the FAI officer to confirm the FAI point of view in writing and he
promised me to write me after he was in his office again. Unfortunately
he did not keep this promise and did not react to any mails referring to
our conversation.

If anybody has trouble to have his badge/record ratified because he
landed after official daylight time, he may refer to this posting and of
course the ratified record of the illegal flight.
The details a
Registration 1-4-2016 PH-1340 Maxim Leenders CN: UFO.
FAI record: 17793

I wish everyone a beautiful Christmas.

Sitting here full of Christmas breakfast, coffee and eggnog, away from the noise for a break...I think life is full of gray areas where compromise and ‘I don’t care, you pick’ thrive. 1 minute , in this case , has me thinking of what a State Trooper said after I asked him “ how much over the speed limit� do you accept.
He said, “ eight you’re safe, nine you’re mine�. I got a ticket for nine over, doing 75 in a 55. He said nine is code to the next trooper to lower the boom should I fail to learn.
Let it go...Sunset is more than a place in time, it forever happens.
“Eight...you’re safe.�

R

On Wednesday, December 25, 2019 at 1:43:30 AM UTC-8, Jan R wrote:
In the Dutch gliding records list, I found a flight, conducted in South
Africa that landed after the local official daylight time. For
ratification a flight must be conducted legaly, so I asked the Dutch NAC
for explanation. The responsible officer told me that a flight that
lands before 19:44:00 is still landing within the 43 th minute.
Interesting to know that the officer who told me that, was a Dutch
engineer working in a Dutch nuclear power station. So, if, all of a
sudden you do not hear anything from Holland anymore, you have a option
to think of.

I waited a few months, and was surprised to see that the FAI ratified
the record also as a African regional record. So I asked the responsible
officer of the FAI for a explanation and I was told that the observation
of the Official Observer regarding sunset time was leading. Of course
this is not true. The country where the flight is conducted issues the
official sunset time and the official daylight times.

After a few emails and not getting any answers, I dropped the case.
Then by coincidence, I met the responsible officer of the FAI at a
glider site and brought up the problem. He told me that for just a few
minutes to late, the FAI considered the flight as being still legal.

So, not South Africa is telling what illegal is in there country but the
FAI is.

Why am I telling this story? The main reason is that if somebody
claims a record and the Official Observer and the pilot himself sign the
claim form, they state that the flight was conducted in a legal way.. In
the mean time I spoke to a few OO's and none of them was prepared to
sign for such a flight. That means that different pilots are are being
treated unequally and that is, at least in my opinion, not fair. So I
asked the FAI officer to confirm the FAI point of view in writing and he
promised me to write me after he was in his office again. Unfortunately
he did not keep this promise and did not react to any mails referring to
our conversation.

If anybody has trouble to have his badge/record ratified because he
landed after official daylight time, he may refer to this posting and of
course the ratified record of the illegal flight.
The details a
Registration 1-4-2016 PH-1340 Maxim Leenders CN: UFO.
FAI record: 17793

I wish everyone a beautiful Christmas.

Sounds like our 1st World problems are being exported to the 3rd World.

Are we talking about a few seconds, here?
I flew the longest legal triangle out of Minden, a few years back. At my first turn (Mine near Owens Lake), was on the line of the correct observation zone, centered on Austin, Nv. State records keeper would not accept my record 1000K flight..............are line’es in, or are line’es out???
Lord save us from the nitpickers!
JJ

On Wednesday, December 25, 2019 at 10:02:52 AM UTC-8, wrote:
Are we talking about a few seconds, here?
I flew the longest legal triangle out of Minden, a few years back. At my first turn (Mine near Owens Lake), was on the line of the correct observation zone, centered on Austin, Nv. State records keeper would not accept my record 1000K flight..............are line’es in, or are line’es out???
Lord save us from the nitpickers!
JJ

So 19:43:59 is fine, you get the record, but 19:44:00 and you are an illegal charlatan? Please, we have bigger fish to fry.

Tom

I trullly get tired of the nick pickers. If some guy makes a 1000k and he is one minute late on the official sunset, give me a break. He is not violating true safety and we all know many many many past record distance flights, guys actually landed in the dark. They were ratified back then. Now with gps tracking, its a handy thing, but also becomes something of an unnecesary handicap.

Jan:
While I am not an expert on these rules, I note that this was an Out and Return distance record that would have used a start and finish line (to make sure that the finish altitude was within 1000m of the start). Would not the "soaring performance" have ended at the finish line crossing and not at the landing? Why is time of landing (or any rule violation) after the record performance is completed relevant to validity of the record claim?
ROY

Op 12/25/2019 om 20:26 schreef Roy B.:
Jan:
While I am not an expert on these rules, I note that this was an Out and Return distance record that would have used a start and finish line (to make sure that the finish altitude was within 1000m of the start). Would not the "soaring performance" have ended at the finish line crossing and not at the landing? Why is time of landing (or any rule violation) after the record performance is completed relevant to validity of the record claim?
ROY


Hi Roy, if you claim a record you have to sign the following statement:

I certify that this flight was conducted in accordance with the FAI
Sporting Code and with (1) all operating
limitations established by the aircraft manufacturer, (2) any more
restrictive operating limitations
imposed by national airworthiness regulations of the civil aviation
authority of the country of registration,
and (3) airspace regulations where the flight took place.
Signature of pilot
.................................................. ....................
Date ..................................

It says "this flight". That means from the moment that the plane starts
to roll at its own power til the moment it stops on the ramp.

If the law says that you have to land before a given time and you did
not, you were not legal and you can not possibly sign the above
statement. It is as simple as that.

Of course, the FAI could leave out the entire statement and hold the
view that a record is a record. That would also not be fair, because it
would benefit people which are prepared to follow the most illegal way's.

It is not my goal to have a record withdrawn. My goal is that every
pilot is judged evenly. There for every OO must know that he is expected
to lie under these circumstances and co sign the claim!
Of course, the next question will be: how many seconds to late is to
late? The "airspace regulations where the flight took place" are quite
clear on that point.

Op 12/25/2019 om 20:26 schreef Roy B.:
Jan:
While I am not an expert on these rules, I note that this was an Out and Return distance record that would have used a start and finish line (to make sure that the finish altitude was within 1000m of the start). Would not the "soaring performance" have ended at the finish line crossing and not at the landing? Why is time of landing (or any rule violation) after the record performance is completed relevant to validity of the record claim?
ROY


Hi Roy, if you claim a record you have to sign the following statement:

I certify that this flight was conducted in accordance with the FAI
Sporting Code and with (1) all operating
limitations established by the aircraft manufacturer, (2) any more
restrictive operating limitations
imposed by national airworthiness regulations of the civil aviation
authority of the country of registration,
and (3) airspace regulations where the flight took place.
Signature of pilot
.................................................. ....................
Date ..................................

It says "this flight". That means from the moment that the plane starts
to roll at its own power til the moment it stops on the ramp.

If the law says that you have to land before a given time and you did
not, you were not legal and you can not possibly sign the above
statement. It is as simple as that.

Of course, the FAI could leave out the entire statement and hold the
view that a record is a record. That would also not be fair, because it
would benefit people which are prepared to follow the most illegal way's.

It is not my goal to have a record withdrawn. My goal is that every
pilot is judged evenly. There for every OO must know that he is expected
to lie under these circumstances and co sign the claim!
Of course, the next question will be: how many seconds to late is to
late? The "airspace regulations where the flight took place" are quite
clear on that point.

On Wednesday, December 25, 2019 at 1:43:30 AM UTC-8, Jan R wrote:
In the Dutch gliding records list, I found a flight, conducted in South
Africa that landed after the local official daylight time. For
ratification a flight must be conducted legaly, so I asked the Dutch NAC
for explanation. The responsible officer told me that a flight that
lands before 19:44:00 is still landing within the 43 th minute.
Interesting to know that the officer who told me that, was a Dutch
engineer working in a Dutch nuclear power station. So, if, all of a
sudden you do not hear anything from Holland anymore, you have a option
to think of.

I waited a few months, and was surprised to see that the FAI ratified
the record also as a African regional record. So I asked the responsible
officer of the FAI for a explanation and I was told that the observation
of the Official Observer regarding sunset time was leading. Of course
this is not true. The country where the flight is conducted issues the
official sunset time and the official daylight times.

After a few emails and not getting any answers, I dropped the case.
Then by coincidence, I met the responsible officer of the FAI at a
glider site and brought up the problem. He told me that for just a few
minutes to late, the FAI considered the flight as being still legal.

So, not South Africa is telling what illegal is in there country but the
FAI is.

Why am I telling this story? The main reason is that if somebody
claims a record and the Official Observer and the pilot himself sign the
claim form, they state that the flight was conducted in a legal way.. In
the mean time I spoke to a few OO's and none of them was prepared to
sign for such a flight. That means that different pilots are are being
treated unequally and that is, at least in my opinion, not fair. So I
asked the FAI officer to confirm the FAI point of view in writing and he
promised me to write me after he was in his office again. Unfortunately
he did not keep this promise and did not react to any mails referring to
our conversation.

If anybody has trouble to have his badge/record ratified because he
landed after official daylight time, he may refer to this posting and of
course the ratified record of the illegal flight.
The details a
Registration 1-4-2016 PH-1340 Maxim Leenders CN: UFO.
FAI record: 17793

I wish everyone a beautiful Christmas.

I thought here was a precedent for this after the Ca City Altitude record? You fly it, you own it regardless of consequences.