Libelle suitability for beginners

On W&W for sale recently there have been several Libelles listed, some look very nice.
And affordable.
Are these ships suitable for very low time beginners?
I've heard they are "lightly" built.
I've also never heard of them having any structural problems.
Thought's?

On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 07:59:06 -0800, Nick Kennedy wrote:

On W&W for sale recently there have been several Libelles listed, some
look very nice.
And affordable.
Are these ships suitable for very low time beginners?

Its probably a good idea to have a few hours on a similar single seater
before getting into a Std Libelle. If you fit the cockpit, then they're
comfortable and easy to fly and with remarkably few gotchas: there's lots
of feel for thermals and if it doesn't like the way you're flying it, you
can feel that too.

The main issue for a low-time pilot is probably the weak air brakes.

Getting a good descent rate isn't the issue because they slip really well
and controllably, brakes in or out. Doing wheeler landings on a big field
isn't a big deal either, but the brakes are an issue if you're trying for
a fully held-off two point landing because speed isn't shed all that
fast, even with brakes fully out, so its very easy to balloon right at
the end of the float if you misjudge raising the nose to put main and
tail wheel down at the same time.

You might find this helpful:

https://www.gregorie.org/gliding/lib...201_notes.html


I've heard they are "lightly" built.
I've also never heard of them having any structural problems.
Thought's?

Yes, they're light - mine was 216kg last time we weighed it,
counterbalanced by a small wing for the era (9.8 m^2).

Mine has now done 3245 hours, a lot of it winched, and shows little more
than fair wear and tear despite its share of field landings.

Glasfaser holds the type certficate and is an excellent source of spares
and support: no subscription needed and willing to supply documentation
to help with any unusual or difficult repairs or mods.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 10:59:08 AM UTC-5, Nick Kennedy wrote:
On W&W for sale recently there have been several Libelles listed, some look very nice.
And affordable.
Are these ships suitable for very low time beginners?
I've heard they are "lightly" built.
I've also never heard of them having any structural problems.
Thought's?

I own a 201B that I provide to our club juniors so they have their own glass ship.
I require them to have completed their PP certificate and get some 1-34 time, and usually a bit of ASK-21 time before flying it. Most have 50-60 hours and 150 flights or so, with lots of 1-26 time when they get in.
They do fine with no issues. The girls like the light wings.
It is not as durable and tough as the modern ships but is a good glider for relatively low time pilots, provided they are prepared right.
Contest number is JRs.
Good Luck
UH

Another 'Club Class' glider to consider is the SZD 51-1. The Junior is benign, built to sustain hard landings, has very effective airbrakes, it slips, PU painted at the factory (no gel coat liability), fun to fly well-harmonized controls, and designed from the ground up to be a single seat trainer. Limited aerobatics permitted.

Things that may or may not matter are 1)it has a somewhat upright seating position, so pilots with long trunks may not have enough head height. 2)a wing dolly is recommended.

Of the 261 built, there are only 7 Juniors in the USA, and 4 are club owned.. So Juniors are rarely offered for sale.

At 17:37 15 February 2020, wrote:
On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 10:59:08 AM UTC-5, Nick
Kennedy wrote:
On W&W for sale recently there have been several Libelles listed,
some
look very nice.
And affordable.
Are these ships suitable for very low time beginners?
I've heard they are "lightly" built.
I've also never heard of them having any structural problems.
Thought's?

I own a 201B that I provide to our club juniors so they have their
own
glass ship.
I require them to have completed their PP certificate and get some
1-34
time, and usually a bit of ASK-21 time before flying it. Most have
50-60
hours and 150 flights or so, with lots of 1-26 time when they get
in.
They do fine with no issues. The girls like the light wings.
It is not as durable and tough as the modern ships but is a good
glider for
relatively low time pilots, provided they are prepared right.
Contest number is JRs.
Good Luck
UH


AS above I bought a IS29D as my first glider (loads of folk said it
was not suitable as it spun easily) and I was a low hours pilot but
had it flown by my CFI who then gave me a comprehensive briefing
and I never had any issues, so as said above get prepared with a
comprehensive brief from someone current on type

happy and safe flying

On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 11:44:54 -0800, son_of_flubber wrote:

Another 'Club Class' glider to consider is the SZD 51-1. The Junior is
benign, built to sustain hard landings, has very effective airbrakes,
it slips, PU painted at the factory (no gel coat liability), fun to fly
well-harmonized controls, and designed from the ground up to be a single
seat trainer. Limited aerobatics permitted.

Yes, my club owns two Juniors, which are used as the next step after the
ASK-21 for our newly soloed pilots. I agree with all the things you said
about them and have a lot of time on them too: I got my Bronze and did
all legs of the Silver C in our Juniors, so I flew them fore about a year
before converting to our high performance fleet (Pegase 90 and Discus).

The only thing I'd add is that you MUST read the Junior's POH before
spinning one: Juniors have three slightly different spin behaviours
depending on pilot weight and it helps to know which to expect.

Another good glider for low-time pilots is the 205 Club Libelle - there's
one in our club and its owners really love it. Big cockpit, but there
were only 171 made, so they're even rarer than SZD Juniors.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

The others have made good points, but also consider...
There is something really special about flying the Libelle. It really feels great to fly.
And you can't beat the ventilation with the canopy partly open in flight.
The feel does change a bit when full of water ballast, more like other gliders.
Airbrakes and elevator are auto hook up. Ailerons are manual, but nice hardware - not L'Hotelliers.
Below, my second favourite flight of 2013 (first was the declared 1000km):
A 500km FAI triangle in H201B.
https://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-3....l?dsId=2968146
Jim

On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 13:05:39 -0800, JS wrote:

A 500km FAI triangle in H201B.
https://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-3....ightinfo.html?
dsId=2968146
Jim

Nice flight!

And a seldom mentioned benefit of the Libelle - its got the best all-
round field of view of any glider I've flown. I don't know any other
glider which lets you can check your own rudder waggle visually, even
when strapped in tight.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

Agreeing with everything UH, JS, and Martin have said,

I made this jump in 2018 as a low-time glider pilot and junior who had been gradually transitioning from powered flying over a couple of years. When I took my first tow in the 201, I had about 30 hours and 50 landings in gliders, exclusively in our club’s training fleet of 2-33s and a 1-26. With a couple of hours of stick time (no landings) in a Duo Discus, I had some concept of the demands associated with a slippery ship, but was lacking formal training.

Beyond that, I solicited advice from the previous owner as well as a local instructor with some Libelle experience, and read everything I could find here on RAS and elsewhere about the type, including Martin’s helpful notes.

I knew at the time it would be a good idea to get some dual time in a K21 or Grob 103, but this would’ve been pretty financially taxing for me as a student at commercial rates and involve a minimum of 5 hours on the road.

Fortunately, taking that risk paid off with a first flight only notable for the giant grin I couldn’t seem to shake. Since then, Libelle ownership has opened the door to quite a few fulfilling XC experiences both from the home ‘drome and elsewhere which wouldn’t have been feasible in club hardware, and, with some luck, many more to come.

Now that I’m a bit older and hopefully a bit wiser, I couldn’t recommend in good conscience that someone make the same decisions I made, notwithstanding the outcome. I’m sharing my single data point mainly to emphasize that pilots with a level of experience approaching what UH asks reasonably before loaning out his glider shouldn’t stress out about moving up to a Libelle as long as they prepare for it.

(As an aside, the whole prospect of ownership was made much less intimidating by going in with a partner with broadly similar goals and experience.)

Practically, the main obstacle for most is the cockpit dimensions, particularly at the shoulders. At 6’ 1� with narrow-ish shoulders for my height, I manage to fit comfortably with the back rest at the aft limit with a regular, backpack-style softie parachute. Of course, the only way to know for sure is to try.

With regards to the “light� construction, you’ll see it written that Libelles are more prone to tail boom breaks in a ground loop than contemporary and newer glass ships. Of course, crashworthiness was not a primary concern at the time they were designed either. Neither the 201 nor 301 are certified for spins or any aerobatics, and you won’t find the limiting g loads in the manual, or anywhere for that matter, although I haven’t yet found a copy of the standards the gliders were certified under. The good news is that the structural design seems to have endured well over 100,000 hours across the fleet with no failures in flight. (If I’ve missed one, I’d be interested to hear about it.)

In short, the Libelle offers great value for money to those who fit comfortably, and transitioning from lower performance gliders with limited experience shouldn’t be too risky with some preparation.

Neiman
H201 #81 ‘WE’

The Libelle makes a fine first glass ship in my opinion. The one Hank is talking about (JR) was owned near me years ago and was my first glass flying.. In my opinion the handling differences between glass and everything else is over played.
You'll be fine! I'd stick with the 201 for a first glider for a low time pilot. You dont need the flaps of the 301 just yet. It's been a while but if I recall correctly the 301s had a balsa core and the 201 foam? Not a big deal, but something to consider during a pre-buy inspection.