Certified into Homebuilt?

I know this is a popular question, but I have not seen anyone actually
answer it. Can you make a Certified aircraft into a homebuilt? The only
response I have gotten is "yes, but with a lot of paperwork." Is there a
starting point?

Brad

You cannot make a certified plane into a homebuilt.

You can move it from certified to experimental, but it will not be the same
as a homebuilt and will not be treated as such.

You might be better off telling us what you want to accomplish by doing
this, and someone here will be able to tell you what you are up against.



"Brad Mallard" wrote in message
...
I know this is a popular question, but I have not seen anyone actually
answer it. Can you make a Certified aircraft into a homebuilt? The only
response I have gotten is "yes, but with a lot of paperwork." Is there a
starting point?

Brad

On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:11:07 -0600, "Brad Mallard"
wrote:

I know this is a popular question, but I have not seen anyone actually
answer it. Can you make a Certified aircraft into a homebuilt? The only
response I have gotten is "yes, but with a lot of paperwork." Is there a
starting point?

Brad

A lot of paperwork or almost as many lies. It's been done both ways.

I am a Private Pilot with about 100 hours. I am looking for an airplane that
I can call my own, whether it is certified, homebuilt, experimental, or
ultralight.

I have a Cessna 172 that is paid for right now, but I think I can build a
better plane faster that will haul more for about the same money I have
invested in my 172. As it is right now, I can't hardly do anything to my
172, as I am not an A&P.

I talked to my local flight service station and they said, if I built at
least 51% of an aircraft, then it could be classified as experimental. With
experimental, as long as I have documented everything, and passed their
inspection, and flew the plane for a documented 40 hours in assigned
airspace, then as soon as it was classified as experimental, it would have
the same freedoms as a certified aircraft.

If I wen the other way, and altered an existing plane like a Cessna 172 for
example, then it could be reclassified as "restricted" and I would have to
contact them every single time I decided to fly.

What I think I need from this group is maybe some restriction definitions
for the following: Certified, homebuilt, amatuer built, experimental,
restricted, and ultralight... or any other comments


Brad



"Dude" wrote in message
...
You cannot make a certified plane into a homebuilt.

You can move it from certified to experimental, but it will not be the
same
as a homebuilt and will not be treated as such.

You might be better off telling us what you want to accomplish by doing
this, and someone here will be able to tell you what you are up against.



"Brad Mallard" wrote in message
...
I know this is a popular question, but I have not seen anyone actually
answer it. Can you make a Certified aircraft into a homebuilt? The only
response I have gotten is "yes, but with a lot of paperwork." Is there
a
starting point?

Brad

As far as I know, there is no other way to be able to fix your own plane
than build it or be an AP. Many people get an AP to let them do their own
work and pay him to check the work and sign it off. This is legal.

If that is what you are looking for, you should start asking around for
someone who will do that for you. The only downside is you still need
certified parts.

Only build a plane, if that is what you really want to do. Building a plane
because you want to fly usually doesn't work out for most folks. They end
up never finishing.


"Brad Mallard" wrote in message
...
I am a Private Pilot with about 100 hours. I am looking for an airplane
that
I can call my own, whether it is certified, homebuilt, experimental, or
ultralight.

I have a Cessna 172 that is paid for right now, but I think I can build a
better plane faster that will haul more for about the same money I have
invested in my 172. As it is right now, I can't hardly do anything to my
172, as I am not an A&P.

I talked to my local flight service station and they said, if I built at
least 51% of an aircraft, then it could be classified as experimental.
With
experimental, as long as I have documented everything, and passed their
inspection, and flew the plane for a documented 40 hours in assigned
airspace, then as soon as it was classified as experimental, it would have
the same freedoms as a certified aircraft.

If I wen the other way, and altered an existing plane like a Cessna 172
for
example, then it could be reclassified as "restricted" and I would have to
contact them every single time I decided to fly.

What I think I need from this group is maybe some restriction definitions
for the following: Certified, homebuilt, amatuer built, experimental,
restricted, and ultralight... or any other comments


Brad



"Dude" wrote in message
...
You cannot make a certified plane into a homebuilt.

You can move it from certified to experimental, but it will not be the
same
as a homebuilt and will not be treated as such.

You might be better off telling us what you want to accomplish by doing
this, and someone here will be able to tell you what you are up against.



"Brad Mallard" wrote in message
...
I know this is a popular question, but I have not seen anyone actually
answer it. Can you make a Certified aircraft into a homebuilt? The only
response I have gotten is "yes, but with a lot of paperwork." Is there
a
starting point?

Brad

On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 23:19:41 -0500, Bryan Martin
wrote:
in article , Brad Mallard at
wrote on 11/2/04 5:27 PM:

What I think I need from this group is maybe some restriction definitions
for the following: Certified, homebuilt, amatuer built, experimental,
restricted, and ultralight... or any other comments

Get a copy of the November 2004 issue of KitPlanes magazine, it has an
article that does a good job of explaining these terms. It's primarily an
article on the new light sport aircraft rule but it diagrams who can work on
and inspect the various classifications of aircraft.

Actually, the article itself is online:

http://www.kitplanes.com/features/co...Revolution.pdf

Figure Two does illustrate the various certification categories. Basically, you
have "Normal" and "Special". Aircraft with "Special" airworthiness certificates
include those in the Restricted, Limited, Primary, Experimental and Light Sport
categories.

You can obtain an Experimental certificate in six sub-categories. As far as I
know, only two of the sub-categories have specific FAA guidance for the issuance
of operating limitations: Amateur-Built and Experimental Light Sport. For the
rest, the operating limitations are completely at the whim of the local Flight
Standards District Office (FSDO).

What it sounds like you want to do is convert a Cessna from the Normal category
to the Experimental/Amateur-Built one (note that there *is* no "homebuilt"
category). The only way the FAA will permit this is if you convince them that
the aircraft complies with the 51% rule...in other words, that "...the major
portion of which has been fabricated and assembled by persons who undertook the
construction project solely for their own education or recreation." (14CFR
21.191)

As has been discussed here in the past, gaining a Experimental/Amateur-Built
certificate for something that started as a production aircraft is not
impossible, but is very, very rare. You have to find an FAA inspector who is
willing to sign off on it.

Best bet is to contact your local FSDO and get an inspector to establish what he
or she will require to be done to allow the recertification. In one local case,
the FSDO told the interested party that he would be required to scratch-build a
new fuselage.

Ron Wanttaja

Dude wrote:
As far as I know, there is no other way to be able to fix your own plane
than build it or be an AP.

Nope, there is another way. Anybody can work on a homebuilt, even if they
didn't build it. The only thing the builder gets is the option to get
a certificate to do the annual condition inspections. If you're not the
builder, you'll have to find an A&P (doesn't need to be an IA like a normal
certificated aircraft).


Many people get an AP to let them do their own
work and pay him to check the work and sign it off. This is legal.

Yes, this is a good idea. My mechanic doesn't charge any additional
for owners helping. She does divide her customers into two groups,
those who participate in the maintenance of their aircraft and those
who are (in her words) "just pilots."

A guy based at our field one day popped in and said he thought there
was something wrong with his battery. The mechanic told him to go
bring it in so it could be tested. He gave her a blank look. "Oh
yeah, I forgot, you're just a pilot. Ron, go give him a hand pulling
out his battery."

Restricted is for test and R&D. You are clearly not doing R&D or
Test. Therefore you have to find some in the FAA whose has the
authority to write you an 8130-? while turning a blind eye. If the
plane crashes one of the first things done is a paperwork review,
yours and the planes. The paper trail would lead right back to the
person who wrote your ticket. And it would be clear the ticket was
written improperly.

The 8130-? can (but doesn't have to) have restrictions, for example,
"can only fly over the water, and must take off and land from over the
water". I have actually seen this. And usually there are time
limits, 30 days, 60 days, etc based on the test plan you submit. You
do have a test plan?

I have heard of people (via this group) who have done this. But it is
a bending of the rules and quite frankly anyone who a lot of time and
effort in to getting a DAR ticket is not going to risk it. DARs serve
at the FAA convience the ticket can be pulled at any time if the FAA
says, "we don't need coverage in this area.".

You probably didn't tell your local FAA office the full story when you
got the 51% rule response.

You are risking your investment in the plane and you could end up
investing lots of time and money on a venture that could be nulled in
5 minutes if a new inspector asks a pointed question.

Sell the plane and build a kit or find a reasonable AP who will let
you do supervised work.

It is easy to put a plane in to experimental (5 minutes), REAL TOUGH
to take it back to cert'ed (could be days of DAR effort). Value of an
experimental C172, probably 10 cents on the dollar.







"Brad Mallard" wrote in message ...
I am a Private Pilot with about 100 hours. I am looking for an airplane that
I can call my own, whether it is certified, homebuilt, experimental, or
ultralight.

I have a Cessna 172 that is paid for right now, but I think I can build a
better plane faster that will haul more for about the same money I have
invested in my 172. As it is right now, I can't hardly do anything to my
172, as I am not an A&P.

I talked to my local flight service station and they said, if I built at
least 51% of an aircraft, then it could be classified as experimental. With
experimental, as long as I have documented everything, and passed their
inspection, and flew the plane for a documented 40 hours in assigned
airspace, then as soon as it was classified as experimental, it would have
the same freedoms as a certified aircraft.

If I wen the other way, and altered an existing plane like a Cessna 172 for
example, then it could be reclassified as "restricted" and I would have to
contact them every single time I decided to fly.

What I think I need from this group is maybe some restriction definitions
for the following: Certified, homebuilt, amatuer built, experimental,
restricted, and ultralight... or any other comments


Brad



"Dude" wrote in message
...
You cannot make a certified plane into a homebuilt.

You can move it from certified to experimental, but it will not be the
same
as a homebuilt and will not be treated as such.

You might be better off telling us what you want to accomplish by doing
this, and someone here will be able to tell you what you are up against.



"Brad Mallard" wrote in message
...
I know this is a popular question, but I have not seen anyone actually
answer it. Can you make a Certified aircraft into a homebuilt? The only
response I have gotten is "yes, but with a lot of paperwork." Is there
a
starting point?

Brad

"Dude" wrote in message ...
As far as I know, there is no other way to be able to fix your own plane
than build it or be an AP.

Yes there is. Buy an amateur built experimental. The only
maintenance you can't perform on it is the annual condition inspection
(which can be performed by an A&P, rather than an IA).

In the OP's case, if he just wants a plane that he can maintain
himself, the best bet would be to sell the 172 and buy a homebuilt.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

It can be done in Canada. It's called the "Owner Maintenance" catagory and
has been applicable to a range of singles for several years now. That
SeaBee operating in Southern Ontario with a Corvette engine is doing it
under the Owner Maintenance catagory. I can buy a Champ, license it under
OM, sell the A-65 and stick a Corvair in it. Right now I can't fly an OM
aircraft to the states but that may change soon.

Part of the argument in favour of it was that annual inspections on
homebuilts up here can be performed by whoever is the registered owner and
no "airman's repair certificate" is required. This has not resulted in an
unusual number of airplanes falling from the sky relative to the US, and
really the OM catagory isn't so different.

Although it's traditional to ignore goings on in Canada, Americans would be
smart to monitor Canadian OM for a while and, assuming over a few years not
too many bad things happen, use it to petition the FAA for something
similar.

John

"Brad Mallard" wrote in message
...
I know this is a popular question, but I have not seen anyone actually
answer it. Can you make a Certified aircraft into a homebuilt? The only
response I have gotten is "yes, but with a lot of paperwork." Is there a
starting point?

Brad