Few Observations

That was a good post answering Horowitz. I have just done a lot of
painting and agree that orange peel is because of paint not flowing out
for lack of solvent. You have to find a balance --- too much solvent
and you get runs; too little solvent and you get orange peel. When you
get it just right --- serendipity! Especially with a good
polyurethane, like PPG. Usually I add just the slightest bit more
reducer than the directions call for.

Another subject: For an A&P,I have been working on an Alon A-2 that is
a maintenance nightmare. All three tanks are leaking and the seeping
header tank has turned the cockpit into a combustion chamber. I
refuse to fly it or even charge the battery because of the fumes, which
the owner admits gave him a headache the last time he flew it.

I am getting ready to restore an old Supercub --- wonderful old bird.
She has wing tanks and a tiny tubular header tank *behind* the cockpit.
Header tanks in front of the pilot mean fires. What happens is the
pilot has a hard landing and a fire erupts. He is stunned by slamming
into the panel -- because he hasn't installed shoulder belts. He gets
out too late because by the time he comes to, the fire and fumes have
caused fatal injuries. I have seen this several times. Be wary of the
header tank, no shoulder belts, and the moose stall. Everybody ought
to know what the moose stall is.

The A&P/IA who signed off this Alon as airworthy the last annual
pencil-whipped the work by slathering ugly pancakes of JB Weld around
the leaky rivets on the wing tanks. Of course the leaking continued.
Also, he didn't realize that the leakiest rivets were hidden on the
tanks' trailing edges and could be reached only by detaching the tanks
from the aircraft, an operation which consumes a half day and a heap of
energy if you do it by yourself. I can't find the thread but once read
where an Ercoupe went down in flames because the header tank leaked
fuel into the engine compartment, causing an in-flight fire. Two
souls, a father and son, were lost in that tragedy.

Slosh and PRC, or whatever sealant is used, are limited to a few years,
especially when the fuel put in the tanks is mogas.

On the subject of pinholes I have found Bob Reed's tips advising the
use of epoxy resin helpful on the refinish job for fiberglas
wheelpants. So even that scowling old buzzard has a few positives.

On the subject of Aircraft Spruce and in fairness to Spruce and Jim
Irwin, the A&P in our chapter who complained he got the wrong steel now
concedes the steel was 4130, although annealed. He got a number from
another member, dialed ACS, and did not see a current catalog, which
would have put him on notice that the 4130 was soft. In addition, I
owe Irwin and Spruce an apology because the Mitchell CHT gauge I bought
from them now works --- I fixed a broken lead and checked the business
end by putting it in a warm oven and ran the temps up, checking it
against an oven thermometer. And no, Irwin did not sic a lawyer on
me.

Irwin ought not to divulge personal information about his customers in
usenet, however.

There are some real characters who fly in to airports. A helicopter
came in to one of our local airports, wanted to refuel with Jet A while
the engine ran and the rotor turned and have somebody climb into the
cockpit with him to show him how to operate his Garmin 430. A
bystander did indeed get in with him and spent 15 minutes showing him
the rudiments of his 430. He flew away without even so much as a
thankyou, said the man who helped him.

I have an ancient Trimble Flightmate GPS which loses more pixels on the
screen every time I fire it up. However, I've noticed that it does
better after it is used a while and this morning it gave a full readout
except at the very bottom of the screen. Now somebody has traded me
an old Garmin 95, which is 5 years newer than the Trimble. I will fly
into an airport and ask somebody to get in and show me how to use it,
while the prop ticks over in the Taylorcraft.

Now, away from usenet and back to the pinholes, using tips gleaned from
the old buzzards Reed and Riley. And with Riley's advice I ordered
some of that Sterling primer he says is so good.

Work keeps you out of trouble. So back to work. Do you suppose
Mattie W. works?

On 11 Jun 2005 09:53:17 -0700, wrote:

The A&P/IA who signed off this Alon as airworthy the last annual
pencil-whipped the work by slathering ugly pancakes of JB Weld around
the leaky rivets on the wing tanks.

A buddy of mine bought a used Cherokee. When he got home with it (2000-mile
trip), he discovered, among other jewels, that the alternator belt said "NAPA
AUTO PARTS," and the landing-light connector pair had been replaced with a bulb
socket and a bulb with the glass smashed away and wires soldered to the
connections. In addition to a bunch of corrosion, he found that all the wing
fuel tank vents had been cut off flush with wing, covered with screws, and
painted over.

The airplane not only had a current annual, but my friend had hired a different
A&P for a pre-buy.....

Ron "Another Case Study" Wanttaja

Ron,

No Names but when I was getting my RV-6 ready for the FAA
inspection I was told by the FAA to have an A&P do the
equilvalent of a 100 hour inspection on the plane.

It rapidly became obvious to me that I knew more than the
A&P at least as far as "systems" went. I had to explain to
him how the ignition switch grounds one of the mags when
turned to the "start" position. There were a few other
"things" he didn't know...

At least I got the signature and the FAA was happy.

John


On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 10:25:23 -0700, Ron Wanttaja
wrote:

On 11 Jun 2005 09:53:17 -0700, wrote:

The A&P/IA who signed off this Alon as airworthy the last annual
pencil-whipped the work by slathering ugly pancakes of JB Weld around
the leaky rivets on the wing tanks.

A buddy of mine bought a used Cherokee. When he got home with it (2000-mile
trip), he discovered, among other jewels, that the alternator belt said "NAPA
AUTO PARTS," and the landing-light connector pair had been replaced with a bulb
socket and a bulb with the glass smashed away and wires soldered to the
connections. In addition to a bunch of corrosion, he found that all the wing
fuel tank vents had been cut off flush with wing, covered with screws, and
painted over.

The airplane not only had a current annual, but my friend had hired a different
A&P for a pre-buy.....

Ron "Another Case Study" Wanttaja

A buddy of mine bought a used Cherokee. When he got home with it (2000-mile
trip), he discovered, among other jewels, that the alternator belt said "NAPA
AUTO PARTS," and the landing-light connector pair had been replaced with a bulb
socket and a bulb with the glass smashed away and wires soldered to the
connections. In addition to a bunch of corrosion, he found that all the wing
fuel tank vents had been cut off flush with wing, covered with screws, and
painted over.

The airplane not only had a current annual, but my friend had hired a different
A&P for a pre-buy.....


Some observations from an older A&P / IA -

It is a sad commentary on the condition of the field, but I think we
are getting what we have asked for. Over and over on this NG and
others I read owners complaints about the cost of maintenance on their
personal aircraft and the quality of work they get.

In general there is a direct corollary to what a person earns and the
quality of work they provide. As an example let's look at the pilot
side of things and the pecking order on wages and skill level -

Major corporation
Major airline
Smaller airline
Fractional's
Commuter airline
Charter

I can tell you without any hesitation that the best and brightest are
not flying charter Lear Jets for a living. There is no difference
with maintenance personnel. That does not mean there are not any
exceptions, but I have determined, in general, that small aircraft
maintainers are either near retirement, new in the industry, or
has-been's that can't find work elsewhere.

As part of my business, I hire personnel for corporate flight
departments. In order to get the best, I typically set the salaries
of a Gulfstream-type mechanic at $75K to 95K depending on the area of
the country. I recently placed a DOM at $105K. These are not the same
quality of technicians that are working out of the back of their truck
or for Bob's Cessna Shop in Grass Strip, Kansas.

My suggestion -

If I were to buy a light aircraft, I would find the most expensive
factory shop I could find and pay them for a complete Annual
Inspection and supervise them well. There is no FAA definition for a
pre-buy, but there is for an Annual. I would set the ground rules and
make sure they understand my expectations. At a minimum, ask to
review their checklist and make sure you are happy with it. If they
don't have a checklist, go elsewhere as an Annual requires one.

I don't think any of you would take your Lexus to the local gas
station for repairs, so why do owners of $75,000 airplanes insist on
going to Bob's? I don't have a clue, but it's something to think
about.

Don,
I think you make some very valid points. I never even looked at a GA
aircraft until I retired. They just could not pay enough. Who here would
work for 8-15 an hour when if they are good at what they do can make 20-30
an hour? Not I , and as the old contracting saying goes" Have toolbox, will
travel".
So now..retirement! Now I am looking for planes to build or restore for
myself. I sure hope I can help someone down the road,...but unless that
situation comes up I'll be breaking out the rivet guns on my own stuff.

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

"Don Hammer" wrote in message
news:1118517137.02e998fe27851901b8e26c46364fa35d@t eranews...


A buddy of mine bought a used Cherokee. When he got home with it
(2000-mile
trip), he discovered, among other jewels, that the alternator belt said
"NAPA
AUTO PARTS," and the landing-light connector pair had been replaced with a
bulb
socket and a bulb with the glass smashed away and wires soldered to the
connections. In addition to a bunch of corrosion, he found that all the
wing
fuel tank vents had been cut off flush with wing, covered with screws, and
painted over.

The airplane not only had a current annual, but my friend had hired a
different
A&P for a pre-buy.....


Some observations from an older A&P / IA -

It is a sad commentary on the condition of the field, but I think we
are getting what we have asked for. Over and over on this NG and
others I read owners complaints about the cost of maintenance on their
personal aircraft and the quality of work they get.

In general there is a direct corollary to what a person earns and the
quality of work they provide. As an example let's look at the pilot
side of things and the pecking order on wages and skill level -

Major corporation
Major airline
Smaller airline
Fractional's
Commuter airline
Charter

I can tell you without any hesitation that the best and brightest are
not flying charter Lear Jets for a living. There is no difference
with maintenance personnel. That does not mean there are not any
exceptions, but I have determined, in general, that small aircraft
maintainers are either near retirement, new in the industry, or
has-been's that can't find work elsewhere.

As part of my business, I hire personnel for corporate flight
departments. In order to get the best, I typically set the salaries
of a Gulfstream-type mechanic at $75K to 95K depending on the area of
the country. I recently placed a DOM at $105K. These are not the same
quality of technicians that are working out of the back of their truck
or for Bob's Cessna Shop in Grass Strip, Kansas.

My suggestion -

If I were to buy a light aircraft, I would find the most expensive
factory shop I could find and pay them for a complete Annual
Inspection and supervise them well. There is no FAA definition for a
pre-buy, but there is for an Annual. I would set the ground rules and
make sure they understand my expectations. At a minimum, ask to
review their checklist and make sure you are happy with it. If they
don't have a checklist, go elsewhere as an Annual requires one.

I don't think any of you would take your Lexus to the local gas
station for repairs, so why do owners of $75,000 airplanes insist on
going to Bob's? I don't have a clue, but it's something to think
about.

Well Don, for every rule there's an exception. Recently (as in last
week) an acquaintance purchased a low time Baron and had the Raytheon
folks on the west coast do a "complete" pre-buy and annual on it, to the
tune of $55,000. During the flight home here to Connecticut, none of the
radios worked, the co-pilot's side rudder pedal was discovered to be
disconnected, and a persistently reported (by the previous owner) oil
leak turned out to be a 6 inch crack in one of the crankcases. Obscene.

I'll take a conscientious one-man shop over that scenario any day.

Rip

Don Hammer wrote:
A buddy of mine bought a used Cherokee. When he got home with it (2000-mile
trip), he discovered, among other jewels, that the alternator belt said "NAPA
AUTO PARTS," and the landing-light connector pair had been replaced with a bulb
socket and a bulb with the glass smashed away and wires soldered to the
connections. In addition to a bunch of corrosion, he found that all the wing
fuel tank vents had been cut off flush with wing, covered with screws, and
painted over.

The airplane not only had a current annual, but my friend had hired a different
A&P for a pre-buy.....



Some observations from an older A&P / IA -

It is a sad commentary on the condition of the field, but I think we
are getting what we have asked for. Over and over on this NG and
others I read owners complaints about the cost of maintenance on their
personal aircraft and the quality of work they get.

In general there is a direct corollary to what a person earns and the
quality of work they provide. As an example let's look at the pilot
side of things and the pecking order on wages and skill level -

Major corporation
Major airline
Smaller airline
Fractional's
Commuter airline
Charter

I can tell you without any hesitation that the best and brightest are
not flying charter Lear Jets for a living. There is no difference
with maintenance personnel. That does not mean there are not any
exceptions, but I have determined, in general, that small aircraft
maintainers are either near retirement, new in the industry, or
has-been's that can't find work elsewhere.

As part of my business, I hire personnel for corporate flight
departments. In order to get the best, I typically set the salaries
of a Gulfstream-type mechanic at $75K to 95K depending on the area of
the country. I recently placed a DOM at $105K. These are not the same
quality of technicians that are working out of the back of their truck
or for Bob's Cessna Shop in Grass Strip, Kansas.

My suggestion -

If I were to buy a light aircraft, I would find the most expensive
factory shop I could find and pay them for a complete Annual
Inspection and supervise them well. There is no FAA definition for a
pre-buy, but there is for an Annual. I would set the ground rules and
make sure they understand my expectations. At a minimum, ask to
review their checklist and make sure you are happy with it. If they
don't have a checklist, go elsewhere as an Annual requires one.

I don't think any of you would take your Lexus to the local gas
station for repairs, so why do owners of $75,000 airplanes insist on
going to Bob's? I don't have a clue, but it's something to think
about.

"Don Hammer" wrote in message
news:1118517137.02e998fe27851901b8e26c46364fa35d@t eranews...



snip

My suggestion -

If I were to buy a light aircraft, I would find the most expensive
factory shop I could find and pay them for a complete Annual
Inspection and supervise them well. There is no FAA definition for a
pre-buy, but there is for an Annual. I would set the ground rules and
make sure they understand my expectations. At a minimum, ask to
review their checklist and make sure you are happy with it. If they
don't have a checklist, go elsewhere as an Annual requires one.

I don't think any of you would take your Lexus to the local gas
station for repairs, so why do owners of $75,000 airplanes insist on
going to Bob's? I don't have a clue, but it's something to think
about.

It's amazing, isn't it? The dealership where I take my Honda charges about
$60/hr, and you pay by "book" time. Generally, a good mechanic can beat the
book by 25% or more, so you're really paying something like $80/hr.

My AI charges $45/hr, and charges for the actual time a job takes. Sure,
his overhead is less than the Honda dealer's, but his exposure to liability
is certainly higher, and he's spent a whole lot more time on his training
than most of the guys turning wrenches for the auto dealer. Beyond that, if
the auto shop messes up a repair or inspection on my car, it isn't likely to
be catastrophic, whereas there the AI or A&P needs to get it right the first
time, or it may cause a seriously bad situation.

Maybe the difference in the shop rates between auto repair and aircraft
repair shops has something to do with the fact that a well maintained,
reliabile automobile is a necessity in today's society, so we can
psycologically justify paying a premium price, as long as the service and
quality of work are good. On the other hand, many GA aircraft are lifestyle
accessories. As such, if they became too expensive, we'll just sell the
airplane and find another hobby. Sad to say, but maybe the AI's are
commanding all the market will bear...

I wish it were that simple, but I don't think it is. Others have made
the auto mechanic analogy and I'll add my experience to that. My
mechanic works in a filthy poorly lit garage (pronounced "shack") at the
end of a rutted gravel driveway in a seedy part of town. He's the best
damn mechanic in town at any price. You can't find his name in the phone
book, and you can't get his number from information, because he's got
more work than three people could do. If you walk in the door and he
doesn't know you, he'll likely greet you with profanity and send you
away. I've had many many friends who've had their car fixed by him for
less than $100 after the big fancy luxury dealers had charged them $700
or more to NOT fix them. He KNOWS cars.

Then there was the "60 minutes" (IIRC) piece just a few years ago that
secretly filmed major airline maintenance crews napping for hours at a
time in the first class section of the airplanes they were supposed to
be inspecting and maintaining. After the nap, they just get up and check
off all the boxes on the form...NOT an isolated incident.

Attitude, attention to detail, pride in workmanship -- I've never seen
an indication that they're related to how much you pay someone. I've got
$8 / hr. workers who are every damn bit as good in every measure as the
$20 / hr. guys.


In article 1118517137.02e998fe27851901b8e26c46364fa35d@teran ews,
Don Hammer wrote:



Some observations from an older A&P / IA -

It is a sad commentary on the condition of the field, but I think we
are getting what we have asked for. Over and over on this NG and
others I read owners complaints about the cost of maintenance on their
personal aircraft and the quality of work they get.

In general there is a direct corollary to what a person earns and the
quality of work they provide. As an example let's look at the pilot
side of things and the pecking order on wages and skill level -

Major corporation
Major airline
Smaller airline
Fractional's
Commuter airline
Charter

My mechanic is good and experienced and it cost me less
to have my Piper worked on than my car or my motorcycle.


wrote in message
oups.com...

That was a good post answering Horowitz. I have just done a lot of
painting and agree that orange peel is because of paint not flowing out
for lack of solvent. You have to find a balance --- too much solvent
and you get runs; too little solvent and you get orange peel. When you
get it just right --- serendipity! Especially with a good
polyurethane, like PPG. Usually I add just the slightest bit more
reducer than the directions call for.

Another subject: For an A&P,I have been working on an Alon A-2 that is
a maintenance nightmare. All three tanks are leaking and the seeping
header tank has turned the cockpit into a combustion chamber. I
refuse to fly it or even charge the battery because of the fumes, which
the owner admits gave him a headache the last time he flew it.

I am getting ready to restore an old Supercub --- wonderful old bird.
She has wing tanks and a tiny tubular header tank *behind* the cockpit.
Header tanks in front of the pilot mean fires. What happens is the
pilot has a hard landing and a fire erupts. He is stunned by slamming
into the panel -- because he hasn't installed shoulder belts. He gets
out too late because by the time he comes to, the fire and fumes have
caused fatal injuries. I have seen this several times. Be wary of the
header tank, no shoulder belts, and the moose stall. Everybody ought
to know what the moose stall is.

The A&P/IA who signed off this Alon as airworthy the last annual
pencil-whipped the work by slathering ugly pancakes of JB Weld around
the leaky rivets on the wing tanks. Of course the leaking continued.
Also, he didn't realize that the leakiest rivets were hidden on the
tanks' trailing edges and could be reached only by detaching the tanks
from the aircraft, an operation which consumes a half day and a heap of
energy if you do it by yourself. I can't find the thread but once read
where an Ercoupe went down in flames because the header tank leaked
fuel into the engine compartment, causing an in-flight fire. Two
souls, a father and son, were lost in that tragedy.

Slosh and PRC, or whatever sealant is used, are limited to a few years,
especially when the fuel put in the tanks is mogas.

On the subject of pinholes I have found Bob Reed's tips advising the
use of epoxy resin helpful on the refinish job for fiberglas
wheelpants. So even that scowling old buzzard has a few positives.

On the subject of Aircraft Spruce and in fairness to Spruce and Jim
Irwin, the A&P in our chapter who complained he got the wrong steel now
concedes the steel was 4130, although annealed. He got a number from
another member, dialed ACS, and did not see a current catalog, which
would have put him on notice that the 4130 was soft. In addition, I
owe Irwin and Spruce an apology because the Mitchell CHT gauge I bought
from them now works --- I fixed a broken lead and checked the business
end by putting it in a warm oven and ran the temps up, checking it
against an oven thermometer. And no, Irwin did not sic a lawyer on
me.

Irwin ought not to divulge personal information about his customers in
usenet, however.

There are some real characters who fly in to airports. A helicopter
came in to one of our local airports, wanted to refuel with Jet A while
the engine ran and the rotor turned and have somebody climb into the
cockpit with him to show him how to operate his Garmin 430. A
bystander did indeed get in with him and spent 15 minutes showing him
the rudiments of his 430. He flew away without even so much as a
thankyou, said the man who helped him.

I have an ancient Trimble Flightmate GPS which loses more pixels on the
screen every time I fire it up. However, I've noticed that it does
better after it is used a while and this morning it gave a full readout
except at the very bottom of the screen. Now somebody has traded me
an old Garmin 95, which is 5 years newer than the Trimble. I will fly
into an airport and ask somebody to get in and show me how to use it,
while the prop ticks over in the Taylorcraft.

Now, away from usenet and back to the pinholes, using tips gleaned from
the old buzzards Reed and Riley. And with Riley's advice I ordered
some of that Sterling primer he says is so good.

Work keeps you out of trouble. So back to work. Do you suppose
Mattie W. works?

On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 15:48:43 GMT, "OtisWinslow"
wrote:

My mechanic is good and experienced and it cost me less
to have my Piper worked on than my car or my motorcycle.



Like I said in my post "there are exceptions" You are lucky to have a
good guy.

The reality is there are less than half the A&P schools now than there
were 10 years ago. All the WWII trained mechs are either dead or
retired. Very few young people are going in to my chosen profession
and with the current salary's in small aircraft shops, why would they?
The few that get their tickets are either going into the large
aircraft business or more often working on cars or semi's where they
can earn a decent living.

I'm not making this up. I submit to you is we are heading for a
crises in our industry. As the airlines and corporate travel continue
to grow, I know where the few new guys are applying for work. Ask any
service center how easy it is for them to hire quality mechanics.