FAA to be phasing out "position and hold" in the US

I just received an email from my FBO, who received word from ATC at our
class C airport, that the FAA is phasing out the "position and hold"
instruction "to try to curb the runway incursions and controller errors."

At my home base, which is a class C airport in Syracuse, NY, the
elimination of this instruction could occur as soon as March 20th.

From the wording of the email, apparently this has already happened at
Philadelphia International and will probably sweep the country this spring.
The triple runway incursion at LAX last week seems to have hastened this
move.

While the traffic at our airport is light to moderate, I am curious how
this will impact airports like La Guardia or Boston Logan, two airports
where the P&H instruction definitely speeds up departures.

--
Peter

I don't know about the big airports, but I do believe it would enhance
safety for us little guys, in many cases.

Once I am in position, I can no longer see traffic approaching from
behind me on final. It would be OK if I was only waiting for a takeoff
in front of me, but not if there is anything that might be--or get to
be--behind me. That's the situation that led to some confusion in a
situation I have referred to here before.

It might slow things down a little bit in the margin, but then again, a
collision slows lots of things down a whole lot... So at least at
first blush, if P&H goes away, I'm not going to cry a lot.

I was listening to Palm Spring (PSP) on the Internet when someone ask if he
could taxi into portion and hold? The controller said "We don't do that
anymore."

On Thu, 2 Mar 2006 15:50:58 -0500, "Peter R." wrote:

I just received an email from my FBO, who received word from ATC at our
class C airport, that the FAA is phasing out the "position and hold"
instruction "to try to curb the runway incursions and controller errors."

At my home base, which is a class C airport in Syracuse, NY, the
elimination of this instruction could occur as soon as March 20th.

From the wording of the email, apparently this has already happened at
Philadelphia International and will probably sweep the country this spring.
The triple runway incursion at LAX last week seems to have hastened this
move.

While the traffic at our airport is light to moderate, I am curious how
this will impact airports like La Guardia or Boston Logan, two airports
where the P&H instruction definitely speeds up departures.

GeorgeC

Its alive and well in Sacramento. However, our position and hold point
is before the touchdown threshold so someone would have to land short
to land on top of you.

-Robert

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
ups.com...
Its alive and well in Sacramento. However, our position and hold point
is before the touchdown threshold so someone would have to land short
to land on top of you.

-Robert

Depends on how tall you are.

"Peter R." wrote in message
...
I just received an email from my FBO, who received word from ATC at our
class C airport, that the FAA is phasing out the "position and hold"
instruction "to try to curb the runway incursions and controller errors."

Hm, I bet a more effective anti-incursion strategy would be to keep using
position-and-hold but require an explicit clearance to taxi across any
runway.

--Gary

wrote in message
oups.com...
I don't know about the big airports, but I do believe it would enhance
safety for us little guys, in many cases.

Once I am in position, I can no longer see traffic approaching from
behind me on final. It would be OK if I was only waiting for a takeoff
in front of me, but not if there is anything that might be--or get to
be--behind me. That's the situation that led to some confusion in a
situation I have referred to here before.

I've never felt worried about someone landing on me while I'm holding in
position at a controlled airport, but perhaps the risk is more significant
than I'm aware. Have many such collisions actually occurred?

--Gary

Our airport, Caldwell (CDW), has two runways. Runways 22 and 27 are crossed
almost at the approach edge of Rwy 22.

The other day, I was landing on 22, and on a very short final (no more than
100 ft to the numbers and a crossing runway) I heard the controller say

" Cessna 123, runway 27, cleared for take-off"

which would mean I was about to be rammed from the left by a departing
Cessna. So I keyed the mike and uttered something in feeble protest. The
controller said to me curtly: "This is called 'anticipated separation'. The
aircraft was not even on the runway yet!"

I did apologize as I don't generally believe in arguing with the ATC.
However I thought that a position & hold instruction to that Cessna would be
more appropriate in that particular situation.

-- City Dweller



"Peter R." wrote in message
...
I just received an email from my FBO, who received word from ATC at our
class C airport, that the FAA is phasing out the "position and hold"
instruction "to try to curb the runway incursions and controller errors."

At my home base, which is a class C airport in Syracuse, NY, the
elimination of this instruction could occur as soon as March 20th.

From the wording of the email, apparently this has already happened at
Philadelphia International and will probably sweep the country this
spring.
The triple runway incursion at LAX last week seems to have hastened this
move.

While the traffic at our airport is light to moderate, I am curious how
this will impact airports like La Guardia or Boston Logan, two airports
where the P&H instruction definitely speeds up departures.

--
Peter

In article ,
"Peter R." wrote:

I just received an email from my FBO, who received word from ATC at our
class C airport, that the FAA is phasing out the "position and hold"
instruction "to try to curb the runway incursions and controller errors."

Oh man, that is really going to screw up departures at AirVenture!

In article ,
"City Dweller" wrote:

Our airport, Caldwell (CDW), has two runways. Runways 22 and 27 are crossed
almost at the approach edge of Rwy 22.

The other day, I was landing on 22, and on a very short final (no more than
100 ft to the numbers and a crossing runway) I heard the controller say

" Cessna 123, runway 27, cleared for take-off"

Assuming they are still running things the same way as they used to when I
was a CDW, they run arrivals and closed traffic on 22 and departures on 27
when it's busy. It takes a good controller to slot the departures through
the gaps in the arrivals to keep things moving smoothly.

which would mean I was about to be rammed from the left by a departing
Cessna. So I keyed the mike and uttered something in feeble protest.

If you were doing 60 kts (100 ft/s) on final and were 100 feet from the
threshold, you would be through the intersection in about 3 seconds. The
Cessna on 27 probably hadn't even released his brakes by the time you were
past the intersection. You were probably through the intersection before
you finished your radio transmission.

I did apologize as I don't generally believe in arguing with the ATC.
However I thought that a position & hold instruction to that Cessna would be
more appropriate in that particular situation.

Probably by the time the guy was in position, the gap the controller was
trying to get him to hit would be gone.