preferrred bank angle indicator?

As a low time pilot (150 hrs) I have been alarmed at the number of
recent incidents relating to getting trapped in clouds. In reading
though some old posts on this forum, I have concluded that even though
everyone has the best intention of never getting into clouds, it still
can happen to even the most experienced pilots.

I was encouraged to see that there were some viable options for getting
out of the clouds alive, including the benign spiral, flying south by
compas and using turn errors to maintain a heading with dive brakes,
using GPS heading and groundspeed, and T&B indicators. From what was
writtten, I don't consider a spin a safe option anymore, unless I was
being pulled up into a large cell at 15 kts. So in an effort to keep
my personal survival rate up to 100%, minimize pilot stress, and
maximize my options, I am considering installing some type of bank
angle indicator in the plane I fly (LS4a).

I noticed the TruTrak spins up in 3 seconds, gives an acurate bank
angle even if powered on in a turn, and uses relatively little power.
Does anyone have an opinion about this instrument or others that would
do the trick? My only criteria is that it helps me get out of the
clouds alive.

Thanks for any advice!

At 18:00 25 May 2006, Matt Herron Jr. wrote:
As a low time pilot (150 hrs) I have been alarmed
at the number of
recent incidents relating to getting trapped in clouds.
In reading
though some old posts on this forum, I have concluded
that even though
everyone has the best intention of never getting into
clouds, it still
can happen to even the most experienced pilots.

I was encouraged to see that there were some viable
options for getting
out of the clouds alive, including the benign spiral,
flying south by
compas and using turn errors to maintain a heading
with dive brakes,
using GPS heading and groundspeed, and T&B indicators.
From what was
writtten, I don't consider a spin a safe option anymore,
unless I was
being pulled up into a large cell at 15 kts. So in
an effort to keep
my personal survival rate up to 100%, minimize pilot
stress, and
maximize my options, I am considering installing some
type of bank
angle indicator in the plane I fly (LS4a).

I noticed the TruTrak spins up in 3 seconds, gives
an acurate bank
angle even if powered on in a turn, and uses relatively
little power.
Does anyone have an opinion about this instrument or
others that would
do the trick? My only criteria is that it helps me
get out of the
clouds alive.

Thanks for any advice!



I have a TruTrak installed for this purpose and it
appears to be an excellent choice. It turns on in an
instant and shows bank angle all the while your turning.
It does not show pitch but for a sailplane the airspeed
indicator will suffice.

Best advice? Learn how to identify a cloud, then stay out of it.
Sounds absurd, but unless you have real IFR experience, then you
should stay the legal limit away from the cloud. If you go gearing up
your ship for instrument flight, then your going to find yourself
pushing close, probably going IFR.

Do this. Have someone blindfold you, then, while in a hallway in your
house, where you can run for say 3 seconds, the time to spool up your
little turn/bank, takeoff running full speed. Then report back to us.

Think of the first wall or table you hit, as another aircraft in the
clouds. That's how fast it could happen. All that crap about flying GPS
headings, flying south/turn errors, all witchcraft. Don't subscribe to
it.

Learn the facts, and you'll hit closer to your 100% survival rate.
Learning safety takes dedication. Don't take shortcuts!
Have fun!
Snoop

Matt Herron Jr. wrote:
As a low time pilot (150 hrs) I have been alarmed at the number of
recent incidents relating to getting trapped in clouds. In reading
though some old posts on this forum, I have concluded that even though
everyone has the best intention of never getting into clouds, it still
can happen to even the most experienced pilots.

I was encouraged to see that there were some viable options for getting
out of the clouds alive, including the benign spiral, flying south by
compas and using turn errors to maintain a heading with dive brakes,
using GPS heading and groundspeed, and T&B indicators. From what was
writtten, I don't consider a spin a safe option anymore, unless I was
being pulled up into a large cell at 15 kts. So in an effort to keep
my personal survival rate up to 100%, minimize pilot stress, and
maximize my options, I am considering installing some type of bank
angle indicator in the plane I fly (LS4a).

I noticed the TruTrak spins up in 3 seconds, gives an acurate bank
angle even if powered on in a turn, and uses relatively little power.
Does anyone have an opinion about this instrument or others that would
do the trick? My only criteria is that it helps me get out of the
clouds alive.

Thanks for any advice!

Matt Herron Jr. schrieb:

As a low time pilot (150 hrs) I have been alarmed at the number of
recent incidents relating to getting trapped in clouds. In reading
though some old posts on this forum, I have concluded that even though
everyone has the best intention of never getting into clouds, it still
can happen to even the most experienced pilots.

First, not every pilot tries to stay out of cluds. There are many (me
included), who enter clouds by purpose and for the fun of it. Of course,
we're appropriately trained and the glider is appropriately equipped.

Second, those who want to stay out of cluds can do so. No, it cannot
"happen to even the most experienced pilots" if you fly on the safe
side. Of course, there are always pilots who gamble.

I was encouraged to see that there were some viable options for getting
out of the clouds alive, including the benign spiral, flying south by
compas and using turn errors to maintain a heading with dive brakes,
using GPS heading and groundspeed,

Believing in these "vialble options" is what I call gambling.

and T&B indicators.

The *only* reliable option.

From what was
writtten, I don't consider a spin a safe option anymore,

Many modern gliders won't stay in a spin but rather go into a spiral
dive rather quick. No option.

I noticed the TruTrak spins up in 3 seconds, gives an acurate bank
angle even if powered on in a turn, and uses relatively little power.

No, TruTrak does *not* give you a bank angle. It gives you a turn rate.
Relying on an instrument without fully understandiing it is what I call
gambling.

Does anyone have an opinion about this instrument

I hate it, exactly because it seems to give you a bank angle while it
does not.

or others that would do the trick?

Buy a real old fashioned turn & bank indicator and get some training.
Without training, you're lost in IMC even with the best instruments. Or,
better yet, fly safe and don't let you get trapped. It's possible.

Stefan

I'm with snoop: prevention is better than the cure.

In any case, it's got to be one of the lowest risks facing glider
pilots. I know more people that forgot to hook up the elevator on their
ASW 20s than have been sucked into clouds. In 5000 hours of glider
flying mostly in the Western USA, I've never come close to being sucked
into a cloud, as moving to one side or the other, moving out from under
the cloud, opening the dive brakes, or just speeding up have always been
sufficient. The only area where I have experienced strong enough lift to
be of real concern was flying in the Ely-Tonopah area. So, use the "45
degree rule" when flying in areas with powerful lift, and you'll be fine.

Still, knowing how to descend through cloud may be worthwhile. I've
never had to do it, but two of our club members have had to do it after
while wave flying. It doesn't cost anything to check the benign spiral
ability of your glider, or to see GPS or compass methods might work for you.

snoop wrote:
Best advice? Learn how to identify a cloud, then stay out of it.
Sounds absurd, but unless you have real IFR experience, then you
should stay the legal limit away from the cloud. If you go gearing up
your ship for instrument flight, then your going to find yourself
pushing close, probably going IFR.

Do this. Have someone blindfold you, then, while in a hallway in your
house, where you can run for say 3 seconds, the time to spool up your
little turn/bank, takeoff running full speed. Then report back to us.

Think of the first wall or table you hit, as another aircraft in the
clouds. That's how fast it could happen. All that crap about flying GPS
headings, flying south/turn errors, all witchcraft. Don't subscribe to
it.

Learn the facts, and you'll hit closer to your 100% survival rate.
Learning safety takes dedication. Don't take shortcuts!
Have fun!
Snoop

Matt Herron Jr. wrote:
As a low time pilot (150 hrs) I have been alarmed at the number of
recent incidents relating to getting trapped in clouds. In reading
though some old posts on this forum, I have concluded that even though
everyone has the best intention of never getting into clouds, it still
can happen to even the most experienced pilots.

I was encouraged to see that there were some viable options for getting
out of the clouds alive, including the benign spiral, flying south by
compas and using turn errors to maintain a heading with dive brakes,
using GPS heading and groundspeed, and T&B indicators. From what was
writtten, I don't consider a spin a safe option anymore, unless I was
being pulled up into a large cell at 15 kts. So in an effort to keep
my personal survival rate up to 100%, minimize pilot stress, and
maximize my options, I am considering installing some type of bank
angle indicator in the plane I fly (LS4a).

I noticed the TruTrak spins up in 3 seconds, gives an acurate bank
angle even if powered on in a turn, and uses relatively little power.
Does anyone have an opinion about this instrument or others that would
do the trick? My only criteria is that it helps me get out of the
clouds alive.

Thanks for any advice!



--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
Operation"

Hello Matt,

These days many seem to depend on equipment to get them across "extreme"
sports of all sorts. Aviation, which includes soaring is not an "extreme"
sport. The best solution for you is to learn meteorology as a science and
art. As aviators, this is the most important subject to master, moreover the
insight gained will always get you home, even if you are fully instrument
qualified. Start pushing the weather and I, sadly, do not give much future
for your career.

Still not convinced? Get yourself into an IFR equiped aircraft with an
experienced pilot and fly into the soup, turbulence, icing, precipitation
smashing on your canopy, etc... This is serious stuff, not comming from
overmarketted computer softwhare. Flying in clouds is serious business,
never mind not seing who or what is in front of you. The rest is frivolous
at best.

Flying is all about staying in front of your machine and the environment.
This is where the fun comes from!

Regards

Marc Arsenault


"Matt Herron Jr." a écrit dans le message de news:
...
As a low time pilot (150 hrs) I have been alarmed at the number of
recent incidents relating to getting trapped in clouds. In reading
though some old posts on this forum, I have concluded that even though
everyone has the best intention of never getting into clouds, it still
can happen to even the most experienced pilots.

I was encouraged to see that there were some viable options for getting
out of the clouds alive, including the benign spiral, flying south by
compas and using turn errors to maintain a heading with dive brakes,
using GPS heading and groundspeed, and T&B indicators. From what was
writtten, I don't consider a spin a safe option anymore, unless I was
being pulled up into a large cell at 15 kts. So in an effort to keep
my personal survival rate up to 100%, minimize pilot stress, and
maximize my options, I am considering installing some type of bank
angle indicator in the plane I fly (LS4a).

I noticed the TruTrak spins up in 3 seconds, gives an acurate bank
angle even if powered on in a turn, and uses relatively little power.
Does anyone have an opinion about this instrument or others that would
do the trick? My only criteria is that it helps me get out of the
clouds alive.

Thanks for any advice!

Lots of good feedback for me. Thanks! I think (as suggested) that I
can stay clear of Cu. What concerns me is wave flying. As I
understand it, I could be well clear (upwind) of the clouds by my 2000
ft, and then within seconds, slightly wetter air comes in from upwind
and condenses, and suddenly everything goes white...


Stefan said:
"No, TruTrak does *not* give you a bank angle. It gives you a turn
rate.
Relying on an instrument without fully understandiing it is what I call

gambling. "

Would this instrument then not be useful for keeping the wings level in
clouds? I can imagine in uncoordinated flight, like a forward slip,
the wings would be banked, but the turnrate would be zero...

Matt

Matt Herron Jr. wrote:

Stefan said:
"No, TruTrak does *not* give you a bank angle. It gives you a turn
rate.
Relying on an instrument without fully understandiing it is what I call

gambling. "

Would this instrument then not be useful for keeping the wings level in
clouds? I can imagine in uncoordinated flight, like a forward slip,
the wings would be banked, but the turnrate would be zero...

I have a TruTrak, and it is technically true that it measures turning
rather than bank angle. However, given that you turn by banking the
glider, you would think it would do a good job of measuring bank angle.
And, in fact, it does.


Matt

Same here. I am happy with my TruTrak although I never needed to use it and
hope I wouldn't. Just like my parachute. Treat it the same as last resort
and you will be safer. If you get one, I recommend before permanently
installing it to connect it to a 9v battery and go up in a 2 seater under
the hood with an instructor to get the feel of it. You'll find out, as I
did, that you can keep the wings level and even level off from a bank using
the TruTrak alone. Well worth the $450 IMHO.

Ramy

"Greg Arnold" wrote in message
news:%Btdg.7205$KB.4000@fed1read08...
Matt Herron Jr. wrote:

Stefan said:
"No, TruTrak does *not* give you a bank angle. It gives you a turn
rate.
Relying on an instrument without fully understandiing it is what I call

gambling. "

Would this instrument then not be useful for keeping the wings level in
clouds? I can imagine in uncoordinated flight, like a forward slip,
the wings would be banked, but the turnrate would be zero...

I have a TruTrak, and it is technically true that it measures turning
rather than bank angle. However, given that you turn by banking the
glider, you would think it would do a good job of measuring bank angle.
And, in fact, it does.


Matt

Matt Herron Jr. schrieb:

Would this instrument then not be useful for keeping the wings level in
clouds?

Yes, of course you can keep the wings level with the TrueTrak... as long
as you remember that it's a turn indicator and not a bank indicator. I
just don't like its display. (For a reason, but this is my personal
opinion.)

You may ask: what's the fuss, as long as I fly coordinated, turn and
bank are related, aren't they?. Well, up to 45 degrees, yes. Bank
steeper, and the turn rate will diminish again, reaching zero at a
(theoretical) bank angle of 90 degrees. Now, bank angles of more than 45
degrees are not that uncommon in gliders, so you must understand this
behaviour and keep it in your mind. The interface of the TrueTrak is not
very helpful in doing so, as your original post ("TrueTrak gives a bank
angle") illustrates.

A last note: I've never actually flown with the TrueTrak, so I don't
know how fast it responds. As gliders are pretty slippery ships, any
turn indicator with less than instant response is useless, so check this.

Stefan