New to all this - need some advice and answers

OK, this is going to be a rather long post since I have quite a few
question and they are all over the bloody map here. I know most of you
have gone through this sometime and while I do expect I'm not
necessarily going to hear what I want, I'll definitely hear mostly what
I need..

Bear in mind, I'm completely new to this - decided to go and get a PPL
and work on additonal certifications here (instrument and commercial -
mainly for lower insurance rates).

The problem for me is the time I can dedicate to this - I am a
consultant and travel 4 days a week (mostly to East Coast projects - I
live just south of Denver), so this will not be a commuter aircraft -
unless I move to Richmond, Savannah or Charlotte in the next couple of
years, in which case I could probably use it to back and forth betwen
projects and the house.

First of all, I started doing some analysis and decided on buying a
plane instead of actually renting one. Has anyone done the actual
comparison on totoal cost of ownership and the actual cost of renting
an aircraft?

My target (first) plane is a C-150/C-152... something IFR (instrument
rating is definitely a goal for me)... not a heck of a lot of hours
SMOH, low STOH, as long as the aircraft has been well maintained TTAF
is not that much of an issue (provided is not way over the top here)...
I would say price is going to be anywhere between $19K and $23K
(depending on year and over variables)... (am I on target here or way
off?)... Speed is not an initial consideration here, I want to build
the hours and get the ratings before I move up to something more
"exciting"...

I figure I'd keep the plane for a couple of years - log a couple
hundred hours on it and sell it to buy another plane (a C-172?)...

Few questions:
1. Are my estimates around the right range?
2. What can a no-rating owner expect for insurance per year on a
C150/C152 here?
3. Maintenance... Tricky, I know... but what are the average cost on
annuals?...
4. What should I look for here?
5. Additional little questions:
a) hangar cost - what do you all recommend here? Hangar? Tie-down?
b) landing fees - how do these work
c) who do I talk to at a local airport (KAPA is closest to
Highlands Ranch) to find out about these?

The reason I have to ask all these is to pacify my CFO (aka. wife) as
to the costs related to flying...

Also, did anyone have issues with their life-insurance? I believe mine
can be cancelled if I do "extreme" sports (flying is listed here, as is
parachuting)... Funny thing is that this is done regardless of whether
I die flying (or practicing these sports) or not. So, on that side, is
there a pilot-friendly or pilot group insurance available to pilots?

So... any advice you all (nope, I'm not from Texas) can throw me, I
would appreciate it... Also, lessons learned and gotchas would be
nice...

Yeah - this can be fun.

Rom

On 21-Jul-2006, "Rom" wrote:

My target (first) plane is a C-150/C-152... something IFR (instrument
rating is definitely a goal for me)... not a heck of a lot of hours
SMOH, low STOH, as long as the aircraft has been well maintained TTAF
is not that much of an issue (provided is not way over the top here)...
I would say price is going to be anywhere between $19K and $23K
(depending on year and over variables)... (am I on target here or way
off?)... Speed is not an initial consideration here, I want to build
the hours and get the ratings before I move up to something more
"exciting"...

If you plan on moving toward an instrument rating, and if you live in the
Denver area, then a 150/152 probably won't be the best choice. I'd consider
a Cherokee 140 as a "basic first airplane" that will provide better than
marginal performance and range, Much more likely to find a Cherokee that is
IFR equipped, too.



I figure I'd keep the plane for a couple of years - log a couple
hundred hours on it and sell it to buy another plane (a C-172?)...

Nothing wrong with that, but a 172 is also a fine first airplane if you can
afford it.



Few questions:
1. Are my estimates around the right range?

What estimates are you talking about? Cost for a 150/152? You may be a bit
optimistic for a low time, IFR equipped one. Cost relative to renting? If
you are only flying 1000 hrs/year owning will be a LOT more expensive.
Break even point is probably around 200 hrs/year. You might consider a
partnership.

2. What can a no-rating owner expect for insurance per year on a
C150/C152 here?

As a non-pilot the insurance is essentially for training. You might call an
insurance broker that specializes in aviation insurance for a quotation.
They will give estimates for a "hypothetical" plane.

3. Maintenance... Tricky, I know... but what are the average cost on
annuals?...

Can be all over the map. However, ON AVERAGE, you might figure on $1000 to
$2000 per year for routine maintenance on an older 150/152. Maybe a few
hundred more for a Cherokee 140 or a 172. A small part of this would be the
annual inspection itself. More will be for correcting the problems that the
inspection finds. This number assumes that you do some of the easiest stuff
(like oil changes) yourself. It does not include a reserve for eventual
overhaul or replacement of the engine

4. What should I look for here?

Look for as in maintenance? You will look for a shop you can trust, that
has experience in your model of airplane. You might get recommendations
from members of this board.


5. Additional little questions:
a) hangar cost - what do you all recommend here? Hangar? Tie-down?

Depends upon where you are. In hailstone country or the frozen north, a
hangar is almost a necessity. But in the big cities hangars can cost
hundreds of dollars per month.


b) landing fees - how do these work

Only the largest airports, those that cater primarily to the airlines,
charge landing fees. There are some exceptions, such as some airports in
resort areas, but these are pretty rare. Landing fee for a single might be
in the $10 range at one of those.



c) who do I talk to at a local airport (KAPA is closest to
Highlands Ranch) to find out about these?

Check out: http://www.airnav.com/airport/KAPA



The reason I have to ask all these is to pacify my CFO (aka. wife) as
to the costs related to flying...

A pretty common domestic issue among pilots.



Also, did anyone have issues with their life-insurance? I believe mine
can be cancelled if I do "extreme" sports (flying is listed here, as is
parachuting)... Funny thing is that this is done regardless of whether
I die flying (or practicing these sports) or not. So, on that side, is
there a pilot-friendly or pilot group insurance available to pilots?

Check with your insurance agent. Yes, there are companies that specialize
in term life insurance for pilots. Rates are only a bit higher than
"ordinary" term policies.


-Elliott Drucker

wrote:

Cost relative to renting? If
you are only flying 1000 hrs/year owning will be a LOT more expensive.
Break even point is probably around 200 hrs/year.

Just so the OP is clear, that number should be 100 (one hundred) hours per
year, not 1,000.


--
Peter

Sounds like your excited to begin. In addition to the wisdom on this site
there are quite a few other resources that you should use as well. AOPA it
an excellent starting point. Got a question on Aviation just type it into
google.

The fact that you asked the question reveals how much you will have yet to
learn (and thats a good thing). I've read Buying and Owning your own
Airplane by James E. Ellis. (2004).

I'm lucking enough to fly out of an FBO which has a well maintained range of
equipment (two 152, 72 (two SP's and a G1000), 182RG, and an Archer. For my
type of flying (xc usually within 3 hours) the economics and availability
of equipment still favors renting for me. Its like have a personal fleet of
planes to match my specific needs. Fun breakfast run or serious IFR xc.

I have my IFR checkride next week. My first flight was March 2004 I now
have 260 hours. Only now do I really know the type of plane that would fit
my needs except I don't really have the funds to spend on my dream plane.

Good luck and welcome to GA.

"Rom" wrote in message
ups.com...
OK, this is going to be a rather long post since I have quite a few
question and they are all over the bloody map here. I know most of you
have gone through this sometime and while I do expect I'm not
necessarily going to hear what I want, I'll definitely hear mostly what
I need..

Bear in mind, I'm completely new to this - decided to go and get a PPL
and work on additonal certifications here (instrument and commercial -
mainly for lower insurance rates).

The problem for me is the time I can dedicate to this - I am a
consultant and travel 4 days a week (mostly to East Coast projects - I
live just south of Denver), so this will not be a commuter aircraft -
unless I move to Richmond, Savannah or Charlotte in the next couple of
years, in which case I could probably use it to back and forth betwen
projects and the house.

First of all, I started doing some analysis and decided on buying a
plane instead of actually renting one. Has anyone done the actual
comparison on totoal cost of ownership and the actual cost of renting
an aircraft?

My target (first) plane is a C-150/C-152... something IFR (instrument
rating is definitely a goal for me)... not a heck of a lot of hours
SMOH, low STOH, as long as the aircraft has been well maintained TTAF
is not that much of an issue (provided is not way over the top here)...
I would say price is going to be anywhere between $19K and $23K
(depending on year and over variables)... (am I on target here or way
off?)... Speed is not an initial consideration here, I want to build
the hours and get the ratings before I move up to something more
"exciting"...

I figure I'd keep the plane for a couple of years - log a couple
hundred hours on it and sell it to buy another plane (a C-172?)...

Few questions:
1. Are my estimates around the right range?
2. What can a no-rating owner expect for insurance per year on a
C150/C152 here?
3. Maintenance... Tricky, I know... but what are the average cost on
annuals?...
4. What should I look for here?
5. Additional little questions:
a) hangar cost - what do you all recommend here? Hangar? Tie-down?
b) landing fees - how do these work
c) who do I talk to at a local airport (KAPA is closest to
Highlands Ranch) to find out about these?

The reason I have to ask all these is to pacify my CFO (aka. wife) as
to the costs related to flying...

Also, did anyone have issues with their life-insurance? I believe mine
can be cancelled if I do "extreme" sports (flying is listed here, as is
parachuting)... Funny thing is that this is done regardless of whether
I die flying (or practicing these sports) or not. So, on that side, is
there a pilot-friendly or pilot group insurance available to pilots?

So... any advice you all (nope, I'm not from Texas) can throw me, I
would appreciate it... Also, lessons learned and gotchas would be
nice...

Yeah - this can be fun.

Rom

wrote:
On 21-Jul-2006, "Rom" wrote:


First of all: Thanks for the detailed answer - I really appreciate it.

If you plan on moving toward an instrument rating, and if you live in the
Denver area, then a 150/152 probably won't be the best choice. I'd consider
a Cherokee 140 as a "basic first airplane" that will provide better than
marginal performance and range, Much more likely to find a Cherokee that is
IFR equipped, too.

Instinctively (I think) I had this sort of hit list in mind for a first
aircraft: C150/C152, closely followed by a C172 or a PA28. And yes,
much easier to find a PA28 with a current IFR then a C150/C152. A few
bucks more, but not that much.

I actually stated (don't laugh!) writing a quick database application
for comparing various aircraft for sale - different sort criteria for
the results (TTAF, SMOH, SNEW, damage, avionics, interior, exterior,
damage history, etc.) - but that's subject for yet another post.

For the record: I am using FileMaker 8.0 (Advanced Edition) so it
should work on both Windows XP and Mac (should be easy to deploy it to
a web site as well, but that's not part of the objectives for Rel 1.0
of this thing). The one piece I am having a hard time (even designing)
is the agent to parse through the web sites to mine the check the free
text normally associated with a for sale post (something like "1976
CESSNA 150, 4900 TT, 1250 SOH , IFR !! , DME, Transponder, 3 radios,
fresh annual, air paint, good int., For Sale - $22,900" has a lot of
information packed into a single line in the posting - making sense of
that without human intervention can be quite tricky - doable, but
tricky)

The objective here is to have something that helps me and could
potentially help someone else as well - I can't be theonly guy out
there with this problem.

Sorry, I digress...

Few questions:
1. Are my estimates around the right range?

What estimates are you talking about? Cost for a 150/152? You may be a bit
optimistic for a low time, IFR equipped one. Cost relative to renting? If
you are only flying 1000 hrs/year owning will be a LOT more expensive.
Break even point is probably around 200 hrs/year. You might consider a
partnership.

Yeah, I have about 15 or 20 C150's and C152's I picked up from the web
(various sites, mostly www.controller.com) and the average asking price
is just north of $22K, but there are a few South of 20K - but higher
TTAF, high SMOH, things like that).

BTW: can anyone recommend more aircraft for sale web sites?

2. What can a no-rating owner expect for insurance per year on a
C150/C152 here?

As a non-pilot the insurance is essentially for training. You might call an
insurance broker that specializes in aviation insurance for a quotation.
They will give estimates for a "hypothetical" plane.

Yeah. I'll do just that.

3. Maintenance... Tricky, I know... but what are the average cost on
annuals?...

Can be all over the map. However, ON AVERAGE, you might figure on $1000 to
$2000 per year for routine maintenance on an older 150/152. Maybe a few
hundred more for a Cherokee 140 or a 172. A small part of this would be the
annual inspection itself. More will be for correcting the problems that the
inspection finds. This number assumes that you do some of the easiest stuff
(like oil changes) yourself. It does not include a reserve for eventual
overhaul or replacement of the engine

Great! - this helps out a lot!

4. What should I look for here?

Look for as in maintenance? You will look for a shop you can trust, that
has experience in your model of airplane. You might get recommendations
from members of this board.


Yep. I'll do just that

The reason I have to ask all these is to pacify my CFO (aka. wife) as
to the costs related to flying...

A pretty common domestic issue among pilots.

And all this time I thought I was the only one with a problem like
that... ;-)


-Elliott Drucker

Thanks, Elliott. I really appreciate it. This helps out a lot!!

Rom

TF wrote:
Sounds like your excited to begin. In addition to the wisdom on this site
there are quite a few other resources that you should use as well. AOPA it
an excellent starting point. Got a question on Aviation just type it into
google.

The fact that you asked the question reveals how much you will have yet to
learn (and thats a good thing). I've read Buying and Owning your own
Airplane by James E. Ellis. (2004).

Going to Barnes and Noble right now... If I can't find it in there I'll
just go to Amazon.

I'm lucking enough to fly out of an FBO which has a well maintained range of
equipment (two 152, 72 (two SP's and a G1000), 182RG, and an Archer. For my
type of flying (xc usually within 3 hours) the economics and availability
of equipment still favors renting for me. Its like have a personal fleet of
planes to match my specific needs. Fun breakfast run or serious IFR xc.

That's something to consider as well...

I have my IFR checkride next week. My first flight was March 2004 I now
have 260 hours. Only now do I really know the type of plane that would fit
my needs except I don't really have the funds to spend on my dream plane.

Good luck and welcome to GA.


Hey, thanks - It looks as it will get busy all of the sudden?

Rom

"Rom" wrote in message
ups.com...
First of all, I started doing some analysis and decided on buying a
plane instead of actually renting one. Has anyone done the actual
comparison on totoal cost of ownership and the actual cost of renting
an aircraft?

Write this down on the back of your hand in indelible ink where you will
see it several times every hour: "Simple aviation rule of thumb: Any form of
ownership is almost always more expensive than any form of renting."

Renting will give you the option of taking your lessons from more than one
place while you travel around. (doing that will result in a less efficient
learning process, but will give you broader experience) Also there is an
important "try before you buy" factor when you do your early training in a
variety of rental airplanes. With that experience under your belt, it is much
less likely that you will make the expensive error of buying the wrong airplane.

Renting also gives you the option of buying only the capability that you
need for each flight. At the place that I fly, I have the choice of C-152,
steam-gauge 172, G1000 172, or more advanced aircraft. For a solo breakfast
run, there is little reason to fly anything more than the 152, but for a family
outing a 172 is probably a better idea. If I owned an airplane, half the time I
would be flying the wrong aircraft for the mission.

If you decide that you MUST own, then you need to carefully consider the
several types of ownerships that may be available to you; straight purchase,
partnership, club, leaseback, fractional etc,, etc.

Regards
Vaughn

Famous maxim: If it flies, floats, or fornicates, it is far cheaper to
rent. Having said that, there is absolutely nothing like knowing you can go
out to the airport to YOUR airplane and fly away at will.

Sort of like finding the exact woman and marrying her.

Jim




Write this down on the back of your hand in indelible ink where you
will see it several times every hour: "Simple aviation rule of thumb: Any
form of ownership is almost always more expensive than any form of
renting."

On 07/22/06 12:45, RST Engineering wrote:
Famous maxim: If it flies, floats, or fornicates, it is far cheaper to
rent. Having said that, there is absolutely nothing like knowing you can go
out to the airport to YOUR airplane and fly away at will.

Sort of like finding the exact woman and marrying her.

Yes, except the airplane will be less expensive ;-)


Jim


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

RST Engineering wrote:
Famous maxim: If it flies, floats, or fornicates, it is far cheaper to
rent. Having said that, there is absolutely nothing like knowing you can go
out to the airport to YOUR airplane and fly away at will.

Sort of like finding the exact woman and marrying her.

Indeed, thats why I became an owner and married. Got awful uneasy about who it
was that last fly, float or fornicate it.

--
Frank Stutzman
Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
Hood River, OR