Removing Ethanol from Gas?

The adding of ethanol to gasoline has made the auto-gas STC unusable
for many aircraft owners, nationwide. So far, we're okay (in Iowa,
which is pretty funny) and are able to purchase untainted mogas -- but
the long-range situation seems untenable. We, as a nation, are
inexorably being forced toward the addition of alcohol into ALL
gasoline, so it seems...

On the Cherokee 235 user's group, there is a guy who's been
successfully using ethanol-gas in his aircraft. It's ruined his
fiberglass tip tanks, but he apparently expected this to happen.
Otherwise, the engine is running fine, or so he reports. (Personally,
I think he's crazy, ruining tip tanks that run close to $4K *apiece*,
but that's just me...)

His experience has led to a more interesting (to me) discussion about
the possibility of REMOVING ethanol from gasoline. Several ideas have
been postulated (evaporation; heating; adding water), but none of them
sound particularly safe or easy.

Any chemists out there? Anyone know a way to remove the ethanol from
mogas, so that we may safely use it in our aircraft?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
ups.com...
The adding of ethanol to gasoline has made the auto-gas STC unusable
for many aircraft owners, nationwide. So far, we're okay (in Iowa,
which is pretty funny) and are able to purchase untainted mogas -- but
the long-range situation seems untenable. We, as a nation, are
inexorably being forced toward the addition of alcohol into ALL
gasoline, so it seems...

On the Cherokee 235 user's group, there is a guy who's been
successfully using ethanol-gas in his aircraft. It's ruined his
fiberglass tip tanks, but he apparently expected this to happen.
Otherwise, the engine is running fine, or so he reports. (Personally,
I think he's crazy, ruining tip tanks that run close to $4K *apiece*,
but that's just me...)

His experience has led to a more interesting (to me) discussion about
the possibility of REMOVING ethanol from gasoline. Several ideas have
been postulated (evaporation; heating; adding water), but none of them
sound particularly safe or easy.

Any chemists out there? Anyone know a way to remove the ethanol from
mogas, so that we may safely use it in our aircraft?
--


This was discussed a while back. While I'm not a chemist I would think that
what came out of the removal process would have a completely unknown octane
rating that would probably be lower than what went in.

I also think "successfully using ethanol-gas" and "ruined his fiberglass tip
tanks" really shouldn't be used in the same paragraph.

Any chemists out there? Anyone know a way to remove the ethanol from
mogas, so that we may safely use it in our aircraft?

This was discussed a while back. While I'm not a chemist I would think that
what came out of the removal process would have a completely unknown octane
rating that would probably be lower than what went in.

Really? Dang, I thought I had kept up here. I remember reading about
TESTING for ethanol, but never removing it... Sorry about that.

I also think "successfully using ethanol-gas" and "ruined his fiberglass tip
tanks" really shouldn't be used in the same paragraph.

Few planes have fiberglass tip tanks -- so I think his experience is a
fairly valid test for many aircraft owners. It seems to be "running"
just fine in his low-compression Lycoming O-540, which is exactly what
you might expect from an old 1940's-era tractor engine.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

ECON 101

AvGas is available at X price
MoGas is available at 3/4X price
Cost to re-refine MoGas Y (why is a good choice of letter)
Cost to repair damaged engine (each) $20,000.

Cost to repair damaged fuel tanks, plumbing, pumps and
seals, unknown.

Cost of FAA violation of regulations, certificate
suspension, a lot
Cost of uninsured aircraft when your insurance is cancelled,
priceless.



--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATcox.net wrote in message
...
|
| "Jay Honeck" wrote in message
|
ups.com...
| The adding of ethanol to gasoline has made the auto-gas
STC unusable
| for many aircraft owners, nationwide. So far, we're
okay (in Iowa,
| which is pretty funny) and are able to purchase
untainted mogas -- but
| the long-range situation seems untenable. We, as a
nation, are
| inexorably being forced toward the addition of alcohol
into ALL
| gasoline, so it seems...
|
| On the Cherokee 235 user's group, there is a guy who's
been
| successfully using ethanol-gas in his aircraft. It's
ruined his
| fiberglass tip tanks, but he apparently expected this to
happen.
| Otherwise, the engine is running fine, or so he reports.
(Personally,
| I think he's crazy, ruining tip tanks that run close to
$4K *apiece*,
| but that's just me...)
|
| His experience has led to a more interesting (to me)
discussion about
| the possibility of REMOVING ethanol from gasoline.
Several ideas have
| been postulated (evaporation; heating; adding water),
but none of them
| sound particularly safe or easy.
|
| Any chemists out there? Anyone know a way to remove the
ethanol from
| mogas, so that we may safely use it in our aircraft?
| --
|
|
| This was discussed a while back. While I'm not a chemist I
would think that
| what came out of the removal process would have a
completely unknown octane
| rating that would probably be lower than what went in.
|
| I also think "successfully using ethanol-gas" and "ruined
his fiberglass tip
| tanks" really shouldn't be used in the same paragraph.
|
|

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
news:q0oCg.14$SZ3.7@dukeread04...
ECON 101

AvGas is available at X price
MoGas is available at 3/4X price
Cost to re-refine MoGas Y (why is a good choice of letter)
Cost to repair damaged engine (each) $20,000.

Cost to repair damaged fuel tanks, plumbing, pumps and
seals, unknown.

Cost of FAA violation of regulations, certificate
suspension, a lot
Cost of uninsured aircraft when your insurance is cancelled,
priceless.

--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

There is also the issue of performance. As I understand it, alcohol
doesn't produce as much horsepower per volume as does avgas. If I use a
mogas that has alcohol in it, I don't have the "Get up and GO" that I used
to have. On that hot day at high altitude, over an obstacle, which takeoff
performance chart do I use?

Al G

"Jay Honeck" wrote:

The adding of ethanol to gasoline has made the auto-gas STC unusable
for many aircraft owners, nationwide. So far, we're okay (in Iowa,
which is pretty funny) and are able to purchase untainted mogas -- but
the long-range situation seems untenable. We, as a nation, are
inexorably being forced toward the addition of alcohol into ALL
gasoline, so it seems...

On the Cherokee 235 user's group, there is a guy who's been
successfully using ethanol-gas in his aircraft. It's ruined his
fiberglass tip tanks, but he apparently expected this to happen.
Otherwise, the engine is running fine, or so he reports. (Personally,
I think he's crazy, ruining tip tanks that run close to $4K *apiece*,
but that's just me...)

Longer term, he is also risking corrosion damage to main tanks and pumps,
since ethanol, being hygroscopic, tends to join with any water, including
that from humidity in the air, and settle to the bottom of tanks. This
is a particular problem where humidity is high, and the fuel is left in
the tank for any period of time before being used.

The water content can also add to the risk of vapor lock or ice crystals
forming in the fuel where those things are already a problem, such as
where winter grade fuel is not used until the heat of the summer.

His experience has led to a more interesting (to me) discussion about
the possibility of REMOVING ethanol from gasoline. Several ideas have
been postulated (evaporation; heating; adding water), but none of them
sound particularly safe or easy.

Any chemists out there? Anyone know a way to remove the ethanol from
mogas, so that we may safely use it in our aircraft?

Without directly answering the question, also keep in mind that ethanol
is an octane booster. If it is removed from E10 fuel, as an example,
there is a loss of 2 or 3 points of octane. (This is also a problem
where the ethanol has combined with water and dropped out of the gasoline
mix.)

An engine like a Rotax turbo approved for use of Mogas requires a minimum
of 91 or 92 octane, and that is the rating for premium fuel. Thus, if
the ethanol is removed, even from premium fuel, the octane wouldn't be
high enough to use in the engine. The only possibility would be to start
with Sunoco Ultra, which is a 94 octane fuel, which I understand is 93
octane without the ethanol. Perhaps Sunoco will offer it as mogas
without the ethanol.

One way of removing ethanol would be to mix water with the fuel, and let
it sit for a while. The ethanol would combine with water, then you could
drain both off, (along with any other soluble compounds in the fuel).

It's is like the guy who spent $25,000 on tools to build
furniture for his house, to save 25% on the furniture.
During WWII the Army published flight manuals for fighters
(and bombers) for different grades of fuel, 80/87, 91-96,
100/130 and 115/145 being refined. But some battlefields
did not have supplies of all grades. So you might have a 54
In Hg. MAP with 115/145 and only 40 inches with 100/130.

But what octane do you get from home refined mogas?



--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Al" wrote in message
...
|
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
in message
| news:q0oCg.14$SZ3.7@dukeread04...
| ECON 101
|
| AvGas is available at X price
| MoGas is available at 3/4X price
| Cost to re-refine MoGas Y (why is a good choice of
letter)
| Cost to repair damaged engine (each) $20,000.
|
| Cost to repair damaged fuel tanks, plumbing, pumps and
| seals, unknown.
|
| Cost of FAA violation of regulations, certificate
| suspension, a lot
| Cost of uninsured aircraft when your insurance is
cancelled,
| priceless.
|
| --
| James H. Macklin
| ATP,CFI,A&P
|
| There is also the issue of performance. As I understand
it, alcohol
| doesn't produce as much horsepower per volume as does
avgas. If I use a
| mogas that has alcohol in it, I don't have the "Get up and
GO" that I used
| to have. On that hot day at high altitude, over an
obstacle, which takeoff
| performance chart do I use?
|
| Al G
|
|

In article ,
"Al" wrote:

There is also the issue of performance. As I understand it, alcohol
doesn't produce as much horsepower per volume as does avgas. If I use a
mogas that has alcohol in it, I don't have the "Get up and GO" that I used
to have. On that hot day at high altitude, over an obstacle, which takeoff
performance chart do I use?

Today's Wall Street Journal has an chart of pickup trucks and cars and
gas milage with gasoline and E85.
Gas E85 Gas E85 Annual E85 Costs+
City City Hwy HWy Cost /Savings-
Chevy Silverado 1500 AWD 15 11 19 14 $2813 -$10
Chevy Impala 21 16 31 23 $1877 +$40
Chevy Tahoe 1500 AWD 14 11 18 14 $2813 +$223
Ford Crown Victoria 17 12 25 18 $2250 +$353
Ford F150 FFV AWD 14 10 18 13 $3002 +$311

based on 45% highway/55% city, 15,000 mpy

On Wed, 9 Aug 2006 10:12:00 -0700, "Al"
wrote:
On that hot day at high altitude, over an obstacle, which takeoff
performance chart do I use?

The one that says, "stay on the ground and have a beer"?

Jay Honeck wrote:
We, as a nation, are
inexorably being forced toward the addition of alcohol into ALL
gasoline, so it seems...

I don't think there's nearly enough ethanol manufacturing capacity to
do a nation wide mix of E10. That's a huge amount of ethanol to be
made from corn or other plants, plus the cost and the energy in
distillation.